A Podcast for Coaches

Hey, this is Mark Butler and you are
listening to a podcast for coaches.

Recently I've been binging a
podcast called the Psychiatry

and Psychotherapy Podcast with a
host whose name I believe is Dr.

David Pewter.

The episodes I've been listening to
so far include interviews with some of

the creators or people who are closely
tied to the creators of some of the

most famous modalities in therapy.

,
Dr.

Pewter is interviewing these different
practitioners who have spent decades

developing and refining their different
modalities for how they support people.

It is fascinating to me.

I highly recommend, if you're a
helper of any kind, you'd be well

served to listen to this podcast.

Now, here's what's interesting.

The creator of Motivational
Interviewing, I believe his name was Dr.

Miller.

We'll just pretend his name was Dr.

Miller.

Dr.

Miller and Dr.

Pewter were talking about how
in the early days after Dr.

Miller had created Motivational
Interviewing, they started to

do trainings with therapists.

They wanted to make sure that
their trainings were effective.

Dr.

Miller said, It was a huge blow to his
ego because they discovered through

follow up research that their trainings
basically had no positive impact on

the therapist's actual effectiveness.

This surprised and
disappointed him because

he thought he and his team
were doing an amazing job.

The therapists were enthusiastic
about what they were learning.

And then after the training in followup
interviews with the participants, the

participants would describe how much they
were enjoying using , these techniques.

But Dr.

Milner's team through whatever research
they were doing, discovered that

the effectiveness of the therapists
had actually not increased at all.

First of all, I have enormous
respect for this man that he would.

care whether his trainings
were actually having an impact.

It seems obvious, but it's not something
I hear about very often, where people

say, let's do this training, and then
let's make sure it actually helps.

Well, what they discovered
is it didn't actually help.

So they were back to the drawing board.

Dr.

Pewter asks Dr.

Miller, if your trainings weren't
working, then what did you do?

Dr.

Miller says, We realized that the
only way to help our therapists become

more effective was by implementing
principles of deliberate practice.

Now, I was a little bit disappointed
because in the episode itself, they

didn't really dig into what that
deliberate practice looked like.

So it left me thinking about
deliberate practice as a coach.

And as I thought about that,
my mind flashed to 2004, to

2008, when I had a sales job.

And this sales job was over the phone.

So my job was to call people to
engage them in conversation, to get

a sense of where their motivation
was to take a certain kind of action.

And what that led to was during those,
let's say three and a half years, I

would estimate that I probably did
a few thousand hours, let's say 2000

on the low end, maybe 4, 000 on the
high end hours of deep listening.

Remember sitting in my cubicle at this
sales job, you know, had a headset

and I would put my elbows on the desk.

I would put my hands over , the
ear pieces of the headset.

I would close my eyes and I would lean
down into that cubicle and I would just

listen to the person who I was supposed
to be persuading to take a certain action.

And I think that over the course
of that two to 4, 000 hours, I

became a very different listener
than I would have been otherwise.

And I think that was deliberate practice.

Now can I say that with certainty?

No, no one was measuring my effectiveness.

There's no before and after I can't give
you any data, but my instinct when I was

thinking about deliberate practice and how
it might apply to my coaching practice,

my mind flashed to that experience.

I believe listening is the fundamental
skill of coaching, deep listening, active,

listening, listening with the ability
to sustain a conversation that Helps the

person who's talking, in other words,
the, the client discover something they

didn't already know without leading or
manipulating them, truly staying in an

open place, listening deeply so that
they find their way to discoveries.

And I thought, is this
a thing that coaches do?

Is this the thing that coaches know to do?

If you invited them to do it,
would they have any idea how?

And I thought, well, what's in the,
what's in the current environment,

what do we see in the world?

And I think what we see in the world
is because of social media, like

YouTube, like Instagram, like Tik
TOK, like podcasts, like this very

thing that I'm doing right now, we're
living in a time of answers more than

we're living in a time of questions.

I worry that I, and all of you as
helpers think that the majority

of our job is to have answers.

Insights to be clever, to quote, get a
person there, help them see, et cetera.

And although I absolutely believe that
having answers and having insights is

part of a great helping relationship,
call it a coaching relationship,

call it a therapy relationship.

I believe that having answers,
insights, and yeah, even advice.

It's very helpful to the
client, but in proportion,

so let me talk for a minute
about how I think this can go

wrong in a coaching interaction.

Number one, because I think we
live in the age of answers as

opposed to the age of questions.

I think that when coaches do questions,
they're susceptible to attempting

to be too quick and too clever.

They think that speed and
cleverness are their main job.

Sometimes I think coaches say to
themselves or to their peers, I'm trying

to figure out what question I could
ask that would get us to the heart

of the matter as fast as possible.

And I push back on that completely.

I also worry that sometimes if a coach
is in a hurry, because they want to get

to answers, they want to get to insights
and they want to demonstrate cleverness.

That can lead to interruption of the
client, assumptions about the client.

I think it can create weird power
dynamics in the interaction where the

client is either overtly or covertly
being told you are wrong and I am right.

You should be quiet and listen to me.

You should do what I say, which
means in the worst case scenario,

if we get this two out of balance,
we end up gaslighting our clients.

And I know gaslighting is a
buzzword, but I wouldn't use it

here if I hadn't observed it in
different coaching situations.

So even sometimes when a coach intends
to serve with questions, if there's

too much impatience or if there's too
strong of an agenda in that coach.

Then I think we wander over into
harmful and even unethical territory.

I think also well intended coaches
are often on the hunt for the

quote, unquote, perfect question.

Oh, I just want to ask that one
question that unlocks the client,

but my observation is the attempt
to find and use the perfect question

robs you of The opportunity to ask a
bunch of imperfect questions and then

relying on your client's wisdom and
insight and trusting that they will

have the discovery that they need to
have as you patiently spend time with

them, asking all kinds of questions.

One of my favorite quotes
is there's no silver bullet.

We're going to need lots
and lots of lead bullets.

In other words, there's
no perfect question.

We're going to need lots and lots of
imperfect questions in a compassionate

setting where we're creating a lot
of space for that person to explore

and feel safe while they're doing it.

And then they will find their way.

The other thing that I want to mention,
because I am afraid that it happens, is

that I believe that sometimes coaches
use questions to lead and to manipulate.

And in other words, they have a
specific idea about what they want

the client to agree to, or to know.

And instead of just saying it, they
try to ask questions that would lead

the client to say it themselves.

That is the definition of manipulation.

And I understand that it's
often well intended, but it's

manipulative and it hurts trust.

You will feel it when you do this.

You will feel it.

You will feel the wrongness inside you
and you'll say, oh, I'm attempting to

manipulate a certain response here.

If I want a client to hear me say
something, I will just say it.

And it will sound like this.

Let me share an opinion with you.

Here's what I'm thinking.

You'll say to your client,
here's what I'm thinking.

Let me know whether this resonates at
all or to what degree it resonates.

And then be willing to have
your clients say, that actually

doesn't resonate at all.

Oh, okay.

No problem.

Let's jump back into a line of questioning
that will help you find resonance.

Let's talk about the type of questions
and the attitude of questioning that I

think is actually amazing for our clients.

As a foundation for this, I want to
acknowledge that coaches, because we

live in this age of answers and not
an age of questions, because we live

in an era where we observe coaching
inside certain communities, or we can

go online and watch YouTube clips of
Colin shows where a person calls in and

talks to a therapist or calls in and
talks to a money coach and we get this

rapid, , presumptive shorthand coaching.

Where the practitioner is doing most of
the talking, the interaction may last

somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes total.

And that's, what's being modeled for us.

I don't think that's the type of
questioning that really leads to

self discovery and insight for a
client, but it makes great media.

And it's a signal to us that if
something makes great media, it's

in service of the lower brain.

Because it's exciting, it's interesting,
it's clever, and it may not be in

service of the higher brain, which
is contemplative, maybe slower to

process, may have to spend time
working its way to connections.

But because we as , coaches work in this
world where most of the coaching we can

observe falls into that type of coaching.

We can become persuaded that cleverness
and speed and answers are the product.

And I don't agree.

I think trust is the product.

I think time and space are the products.

So for example, yesterday I
started with a new coaching client.

And it was a weird turn of events because
this is a coaching client who had signed

up for coaching and paid for coaching.

And we'd never met or had
even a single conversation.

So our very first interaction ever
was the client's first paid session.

Well, by the way, I'm
not going to do that.

I'm just going to credit that
session back onto the back of the

engagement just because I want to.

I think that's great service.

You don't have to do that.

Anyway, all I did for the 55 minutes I was
with this new client was ask questions.

Tell me about this.

What about that?

What about this area of your life?

And all I did was sit and listen.

I would go a little
deeper on certain areas.

I would, I would do little tests
and by tests, I mean I was trying

to find the emotional edges of
what the person was talking about.

And that might sound like, Oh,
with that thing, what would

be the worst part of that?

Or what would be the best part of it?

Let them talk through that.

Ask questions like, what have
been your highest moments?

What have been your lowest moments?

And we're just, Asking questions.

This is the part that matters
at the end of the 55 minutes.

I said, okay, well, you know,
we're about out of time.

Could I give you a little bit of
homework before we talk again?

And the client said, Oh,
wow, that really flew by.

I came to the call today,
worried that I wasn't going to

have anything to talk about.

I can't believe how
fast that time went by.

That's a signal to me that the
person was in something close

to a flow state as we talked.

And I never gave advice.

I never taught any principles.

I never said, here's what
I want you to think about.

Here's what I want you to see.

I just kept asking questions
and sitting in silence while the

person considered their answers.

I believe that may not be the only
product that I'm selling, but it's

part of the product that I'm selling.

And if you think about your life
experience, Ask yourself, honestly,

how many people in your life are
willing to spend that kind of time

with you and have the ability to do it?

Well, if you have anyone in your
life, who's capable of that and

willing to do it, you are exceptional.

Almost every person in our life
with whom we have a relationship

also has some sort of agenda,
there's nothing malicious here.

But in our relationships with our
spouses, with our children, with our

siblings, with our bosses, with our
subordinates, with our friends, we

all have a different kind of skin
in the game in those relationships.

So intentionally or unintentionally
, the incentives that we have in those

relationships will cause us to not hold in
a coaching term, hold really clean space.

And that's okay.

That's what coaches and
therapists can be for.

So if you are afraid that just listening
deeply and just spending time in neutral

inquiry with your clients, if you think
that's not enough, let me assure you,

it's something they almost never have
experienced and don't really have a place

to go if they want to experience it.

So as a result, this kind of deep
listening experience for the client

becomes unique and compelling, even
when there's no obvious conclusion

or result from the conversation,

because the wise coach knows that these
kind of interactions where the client

is able to just listen to questions and
explore their own thoughts with curiosity

and compassion and patience, the questions
themselves become seeds that we as

coaches plant that always bear fruit.

Yeah, but they don't necessarily bear the
fruit that they think they will, and they

don't necessarily bear that fruit in the
time that we think they will or should.

In other words, if you have a deep
listening interaction with a client and

you finish that interaction saying to
yourself, oh, we didn't get anywhere.

We didn't come to any meaningful
conclusion, do not be surprised

when you meet with the client
again and they say something like.

You know, you asked me this question
and it just keeps coming to my mind.

I just keep thinking about that.

And here's what I've realized, but it
happened hours or days, sometimes weeks

and months after that seed was planted.

And the wise coach understands that

these questions can aspirational,
but they don't have to be.

In other words, as coaches, we love to
ask questions , and I, I don't do this

as much, but I know a lot of coaches do.

And I think there's power in it.

Questions like, tell me about your dream
life, get in, get into lots of detail.

Where are you?

What are you doing?

What do you own?

Et cetera, et cetera.

That's fine.

I, I, it's not really my style,
but it's other people's style

and I, and I see benefit there.

I would encourage you to consider
that very boring questions are also

powerful questions like in the last
week, what was your favorite moment

or in the last week, what
was the worst moment for you?

What was the low point
of the last week for you?

We can ask questions that just
connect them to their recent.

Daily experience.

And we can trust that even a
small connection to a small

experience can reveal something.

And as we stack up those revelations,
we get to insight that in my opinion is

easier for the client to trust because
we ask them apparently boring questions.

They inquire within themselves
about those questions.

They start to see patterns,
they start to see how different

experiences relate to each other.

They start to see patterns
in their way of being.

And from there they draw insight
and they decide whether they want

to pursue a different experience.

We can ask questions that are as
mundane as Hey on Sunday nights,

how do you feel about Mondays?

And they could say, oh, I
hadn't really thought about it.

You know, actually on Sunday nights,
I do feel a little bit of dread.

Okay.

Say more about dread.

Well, I don't know.

I just don't really look
forward to work that much.

Okay.

If I ask you to think about
work, is the thing you're

dreading any of the following?

Is it a particular relationship at work?

Is it the activity that
you engage in at work?

Or is it something else that
I'm not even thinking of?

You know, I get along
pretty well with my boss.

That relationship's fine.

The truth is, I'm just so
sick of the work that I do.

It doesn't mean anything to me anymore.

Oh.

Did it used to mean something to you?

Well, yeah.

I used to love it.

I used to love the work.

Okay.

Do you have any memory of when
that feeling started to shift?

Uh, three years ago, I moved into
management, I used to be more of a

technician and I was thriving there.

And then I moved into management.

Okay.

Why'd you make that move?

Oh, you know, more money.

There was more money there.

There was upward mobility.

We just had a kid.

Okay.

So you see what I'm doing?

I ask a question.

They give an answer.

I ask a followup.

They give an answer.

I ask a follow up and as I do
that, I am using my coaching

skills to seek the emotional edges.

Well, how did that feel?

Well, what was the best part of that?

What was the worst part of that?

What would you have done
differently if you could go back?

Why do you think that would have
been better than what you did?

And you just ask questions
and the time does fly by.

I believe this is.

The deliberate practice of coaching,
or it's one of the ways to do

deliberate practice and coaching.

And it starts with taking all of the
pressure off yourself to be clever, to

be insightful, to be quick, to be deep.

And it's just being
professionally curious.

What do you do for a living?

I get paid to be curious is a
thing we could say as coaches.

I get paid to stay curious long
after a normal person would jump

to conclusions, insert opinions and
start to attempt to manipulate the

conversation in a way that serves them.

I get paid not to do that.

Fantastic career, by the
way, an incredible career.

Here's what I want to suggest to you.

Would you consider a hundred
hours of this kind of practice?

Um, would you consider going out
into the world, going to anyone and

saying, I am practicing listening.

Would you be willing to sit and talk with
me for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes,

60 minutes, whatever amount of time,
all I'm going to do is ask you questions

and let you explore your own answers.

And by the way, would you
mind if I recorded this?

Because in order to become better
at what I do, I want to be able

to study the questions I ask.

And whether or not they are helpful,

if you will do this, you will be a
very different practitioner after the

a hundred hours than you were before
the a hundred hours, there's no doubt.

And as a side note, and I almost hesitate
to say this, but in a recent episode,

I talked about how all we as one on one
coaches need is to have a healthy list of

people who would be happy to hear from us.

You will find it impossible to do this
exercise of a hundred hours of deep

listening of listening without agenda.

You will find it impossible to complete
that a hundred hours without adding a

bunch of names to the list of people
who would be happy to hear from you.

Why?

Because you'll be one of the very few
people in that person's life who just.

Listens, and that makes you attractive
and that makes it so when you reach

back out to them in the future with
a newsletter, with a podcast episode,

with a hi, how are you with a video
clip that you think they'd like to

watch, they will get your message
and they'll be happy to receive it.

And I continue to say that is the
foundation of a, an amazingly effective

marketing strategy for a one on one coach.

So, of course, I'll say it again,
I'll say it a thousand times.

You do not bring a transactional attitude
or mindset into these interactions.

You don't have to, if you listen
like no one else will listen, you

become one of the most appealing and
attractive people in that person's life.

And going forward, they will
be happy to hear from you.

And as a coach that will lead to
everything you ever need it to.

So deliberately practice listening.

I think you'll find it pays dividends
that you can't even begin to imagine.

I'll talk to you next time.