A Podcast for Coaches

Mark Butler: Hey, this is Mark Butler and
you are listening to a podcast for coaches

in an open coaching call this week in
my office hours membership, a member, a

participant asked me a very kind question.

She said, how did you
become such a good listener?

And she specifically referred
to my ability to recall details

from past coaching sessions.

And she also referred to the
fact that I've told her before

that I don't take notes.

I don't have any sort of note taking
mechanism in my coaching practice.

And at this point I don't use any kind
of AI summary tool or anything like that.

Well, I really appreciated the question
and I'll come back to the part where

she talked about my ability to remember
details from previous conversations.

But I think the question of what
makes a coach a great listener is a

very important one, because I don't
really believe there's just one kind

of great listener, I believe that all
of us can become more effective in our

listening, in our coaching sessions.

but it won't look the same for all of us.

I believe there are principles that
apply to listening in every situation,

but the specific application of those
principles will vary depending on who we

are, who our clients are, and what the
promise of the coaching experience is.

I have a strongly held belief that one
of the biggest reasons people engage

with coaches and with therapists is
that we listen better and more deeply.

Then the people that are in our clients
lives, they may have great people in

their lives, but most of the people
that are in their lives are people that

have some sort of skin in the game.

They need something or want
something from our client.

And this is true of all of us.

This is true of me and my relationships.

This is true of the people that I love in
their relationships with me and others.

This is a very human thing
that we do tend to have skin in

the game in our relationships.

And it does impact our
ability to listen deeply.

And with pure, maybe not quite pure, but
, with real compassion, real neutrality.

I believe that the ability to listen
deeply and listen well is the most

important skill that a coach develops.

But exactly how we develop that skill
and exactly how we apply it will vary

depending on our own disposition and, and
what promises we've made to our clients.

So let's talk about it.

Of course, we've all heard
some of the standard truisms

or platitudes about listening.

I am all for those things like listen
actively and don't listen to respond.

But I want to talk about these things in
the specific context of a coaching session

let's start here.

The question for you to ask yourself first
is what is your definition of coaching?

Do you view coaching as
primarily a talking thing or

primarily a listening thing?

Of course, it's not one or the other
but which way does your bias lean?

I view coaching as more of a
listening thing than a talking thing.

Of course, there's some irony in that
coming out of my mouth because I am

such a talker I talk All the time.

My wife listens to me talk all the
time when I'm in a group of friends.

I'm loud.

I'm making jokes.

I'm laughing loud.

I'm not usually the person in a social
setting to sit back and be quiet.

Many of you probably are.

That's not me.

I'm a loud guy in many settings,
but there are some settings and in

particular in my coaching sessions.

Where I'm very quiet, maybe if I'm
honest with myself, sometimes too quiet.

Sometimes I think I listen too much.

But we'll come back to that.

The first question you've got to
ask yourself is do I view coaching

as primarily a talking thing
or primarily a listening thing?

Now, even though I just said
that I believe coaching's

greatest attribute is the deep.

Neutral to compassionate
listening that it offers clients.

I also understand that there's
another way of being in coaching

that does involve more talking,
more teaching, more training.

And that's totally great.

That can be the business that you're in.

That's why I ask you to ask yourself
the question, Do I believe that my

job is more talking or more listening?

If you believe that your job is more
talking, Then the listening you do will

be more in service of confirming that
your listener is understanding what

you're attempting to impart so that you
know, whether you're doing the job that

you promised, you're probably in some
sort of a training or teaching situation.

And in that setting, your
job is to transfer knowledge.

Maybe to transfer enthusiasm and in
that case the most important thing

the listening does is confirm that the
learner is Capturing what the teacher

intends so that the teacher can continue
with the teaching or adjust the teaching

as needed but if you view the job of
coaching as more listening than talking,

then I would encourage you to embrace
the idea that listening is a skill.

To be built and to be refined over time.

I do think I was a born listener.

Now that's not a brag.

And the reason I want to say it's
not a brag is that sometimes when we

describe good friends, we say, Oh,
they're just such a good listener.

And I agree.

That's a compliment.

I appreciate my friends
who give me that gift.

But when I say, I think
I was a born listener.

I remember specific experiences like one
in high school where a very good friend

of mine had been through a very hard time,
a time that was difficult enough that

she'd had to leave school for a while.

And I remember sitting in a classroom
with her probably after school one

day, and she was telling me the story.

Of her difficulties and
her time away from school.

And I remember the experience of
listening to her and how much I enjoyed

it, how meaningful it was to me.

And even more than that, I remember
that near the end of that conversation,

she thanked me for listening so well.

And told me how much it meant to her.

Now, at this point, we're 17 years old.

This is my senior year of high school.

I look back on that experience and I
say, okay, even that kid, all those

years ago, that's almost 30 years ago.

He liked to listen.

So I do think it's built into me.

My early professional
experience strengthened.

My enthusiasm and my
ability as a listener.

My very first sales job
was in a call center.

It was a call center
where we were selling.

Ironically, we were selling coaching
and the coaching was quite expensive.

And my job in the sales process
was to do initial conversations

with prospective clients.

And find out what difficulties or pains
they were experiencing and how, and

trying to make a connection to how the
coaching we offered could be a solution

to the pain they were experiencing.

So it wasn't my job to make
a sale for at least the first

couple of years in that job.

It was my job to deeply understand.

Understand where the prospective client
was, how they were feeling and what

might move the needle for them, what
might help them feel enthusiastic

about the offer we were going to make.

So what that looked like in practice
was me sitting in a bank of cubicles

with 150 other sales reps in a very loud
call center with an old school headset

on my head, with my Hands cupped over
my headset, with my eyes closed, my

elbows on my cubicle desk, listening.

deeply to try to understand
what is this person thinking?

What is this person feeling?

What is motivating this person?

Are they engaged with what I'm saying?

Are they apathetic toward what I'm saying?

Are they telling the truth?

Are they holding back?

It was in that call center that I got
my first real experience listening

to what are called paraverbal cues.

Paraverbal cues are silence and
Sounds that are not words, but

that do communicate information.

So these are ums and ahs and hmm, and
silence pauses the length of the pause.

Now, am I claiming to have some sort of
scientific ability to say that Oh, a pause

of this many seconds indicates something.

No, of course not.

Of course not.

And I'm not some super human
savant when it comes to this stuff.

All I'm saying is if I think about
being at that job for almost four

years, And in that time, there was
an expectation that we would be on

the phones 15 to 20 hours per week,
actually talking to prospective clients

even if I round down, I end up with in
the neighborhood of 2, hours of listening.

Now, of course, I was also talking.

But 000 hours of deep listening.

And I know it was deep listening
because my paycheck depended

on how effective I was.

It was commission only sales.

So my ability to hear and to respond
to what the prospective client

was saying was a big factor in
whether I made any money that week.

And there were weeks that I
made no money and there were

weeks where I made good money.

My skill in listening.

Mattered

from there.

I went into coaching and now
I probably have another 2, 500

hours of Coaching experience
and in that coaching experience.

I pride myself on Listening
a lot and listening.

Well now what does listening?

Well mean to me?

Listening well means not being
scared of silence first and foremost.

I'm not scared of silence.

I'm not scared of a pause.

When I'm coaching, I'm using
my client's body language and

then their paraverbal signals.

to tell me how to respond, including
how long to pause before replying, , how

fast my pace of speech should be in
replying to them, what tone of voice

to use, what volume of speech to use.

Don't get me wrong.

I don't have some formula
that I'm using to.

Turn knobs and pull levers and twist
dials as I'm talking to my clients.

Of course, it's all very instinctive
But I'm aware of it as it's happening.

I'm aware of thoughts
that sound like this.

Oh, he's He's pretty uncomfortable
right now or she seems dysregulated

Oh her face is doing a certain thing
that indicates something to me.

Oh, her breath is a certain
way She's talking fast.

Oh, the emotion seems to be very close
to the surface I'm observing all of

that and it's impacting how I reply.

I will try to prove to my clients
that I'm listening both now and that

I was listening in previous sessions.

When I say things like, Hey, by
the way, just setting aside what

we're talking about for a minute.

I want to tell you that I'm noticing a
real difference in your energy today.

And it's not contrived, it's
not formulaic, it's just

when I see it, I say it.

You seem up today, or you seem open today.

You seem energized today or the opposite.

Hey, you seem down.

Am I misreading this?

What's going on?

Is there anything particular
weighing on you today?

Maybe that we're not even
talking about right now.

These are ways for me to signal
that I'm paying attention and

that I always pay attention.

I'm willing to be wrong I'm open
to them saying, Oh, I actually

know I don't have any idea.

I feel the same as always.

I feel fine.

I feel good or whatever they might say.

I'm willing to throw out a
question like that and have it not

pay off in some meaningful way.

I'm not trying to get my clients to
comment on my deep insight, my incredible

awareness or my special cleverness.

Sometimes I struggle when I hear coaches
use words like intuitive or intuition, not

because I don't believe in those things,
but when I hear a coach describe herself

or himself as especially intuitive,

there is a little question in my mind
that says is that coach attempting

to manipulate their client into
commenting on their intuitiveness.

Does the coach want the client to say,
Oh, , you just know how to read me

or you're so intuitive or whatever.

I can, that's not a bad thing necessarily,
but if the coach starts to really buy

into a view of themselves as deeply
intuitive and starts to advertise that.

It seems like sometimes , we're a short
walk over to a coach claiming to be some

sort of clairvoyant and it does happen.

And I am willing to say on this
podcast that I am not in favor of that.

Now if I have clairvoyance in the
audience, well, I suppose you knew

I was going to say that anyway.

Didn't you?

Just kidding.

My point is.

I want to make guesses based on my
experience and instinct, and I want to

share those guesses with my clients.

I want those guesses to signal not
that I'm so deep or so insightful, but

that I'm paying very careful attention.

And even when my guesses are wrong,
Guesses about their current emotional

state or why they might be thinking
or feeling what they're thinking or

feeling I'm willing to have those be
wrong because even when they're wrong

I think they signal to my client that
I'm paying very careful attention

I want them to believe and I want it
to be true that I'm Listening hard and

listening deeply and that I'm effortful
in the attention that I'm paying

I think this is crucial for building
trust and rapport with a client.

I don't have a lot of clients who come
back to me necessarily and tell me,

Oh, you're such an amazing listener.

None are really coming to
mind at the moment, actually.

But I try to be that for my clients.

I try to pay more careful attention to
them than maybe anyone else in their life.

And in doing that, I'm hoping to build
trust such that they feel comfortable

revealing things to themselves above
all else that they might not otherwise

reveal, that they might gain insights
that they might not otherwise.

If I can give you a tip or a hack,
although I don't think it's a hack

to becoming a better
listener for your clients.

You've all heard that Active Listening
101 prescribes that when you listen, you

don't listen with an intent to reply,
you listen with an intent to understand.

And of course I agree with that.

A way that you can actually do
that more easily is by listening

to what your client is saying and
attempting to watch the movie in

your mind that they are narrating.

So when I'm talking to a client
and they are telling me about an

interaction with a loved one or a boss.

Or a difficult conversation that
they had, or a childhood experience.

I'm actually watching
the movie in my head.

So instead of preparing to
react, I'm just watching a movie

that disconnects me from judgment.

It disconnects me from anxiety.

And I think it changes , my face.

I think it changes my face and
my body language such that.

They may feel at ease.

I have, a close friend who's also
been a client for a good while now.

And she told me once that when I'm
coaching, my face is so neutral that

sometimes she does wonder if either
zoom froze or if I am still listening.

, she said this in a very
kind and complimentary way.

And I took it that way, which is very
nice of her to say, it did give me a

little bit of a question about, okay,
maybe I'm too flat in my expressions when

I'm coaching a client, because I do want
my client to know that I am listening

and I'm listening with real intent.

And maybe I should just tell them,
Hey, I'm just over here watching the

movie in my head, you're describing a
scenario and it's unfolding in my mind.

And then as they conclude their
description of the scenario, then I do

switch back on curiosity, assessment
or discernment, whatever word you like.

Then I'm coming to them with questions
about the movie I just watched.

And in this way, I think
I can be very effective.

I think I can prove how deeply I was
listening by making it clear to my

client, I was watching the movie.

I was seeing these characters interact.

I was considering how those characters
were feeling in that interaction.

And having done that, here
are my follow up questions.

It really helps.

Watch the movie in your head.

In that classic book, how to win
friends and influence people.

It's by Dale Carnegie.

He says that the most interesting
people are the most interested people.

And I believe that that
is a timeless principle.

We will notice ourselves enjoying
and feeling most comfortable around

the people who listen to us best.

We will also notice ourselves
feeling less comfortable around

people who Talk more than they
listen, who don't listen that well.

Our anxiety will be higher
around those people, especially

depending on their anxiety level.

Our boredom will increase if they're
only interested in themselves.

So coaching provides us with
this incredible opportunity

to almost industrialize.

The principle that the most interesting
people are the most interested people

as we make our clients and their
stories and their experiences and

their thoughts and their feelings.

The most interesting thing in the
world to us, they will feel it.

The trust will be there.

The insights will come more easily
for them and the coaching will pay.

And by pay, I mean, of course, payoff,
but also it's a good way to get to

continue to get paid as a coach.

If you.

Really become a person who listens
well who listens better than most

of the people they interact with
in their life so I Don't think you

have to have a superhuman memory.

I do have a very weird memory I've
shared this before I remember odd

facts odd details sentences from
sometimes weeks months and years

ago But I can't necessarily remember
why I went into the kitchen.

I don't think I'm unusual in
that, especially as I age.

I think as we age, that becomes
a more common occurrence.

But I do have the ability to recall
threads of conversations that happened

weeks and months ago, sometimes years ago.

I don't think that's a prerequisite
for being an effective coach.

I think that if I didn't have that,
and even though I do have that, I think

my clients might be well served if I
would at least experiment with some

sort of AI summarization tool, , with
creating transcripts of , my client

calls, and then referring back to those
transcripts because I have done that

here and there and it does yield insight.

So part of being a great listener
could be a willingness to study

the recordings of your calls.

Maybe you don't have to be the all
time best listener in the moment.

Maybe it's a willingness to
record and to review the calls

that you do and learn from those.

But I don't think a
superhuman memory is required.

I think what's required is a belief
that listening matters and is powerful.

I think curiosity and care
about your clients, their lives

and their stories is powerful.

I think silence is extremely powerful

and I think watching the movie
in your mind is powerful.

And if all of that is built on a
belief that coaching is more about

listening than it is about talking,

we kind of can't go wrong.

And with that, I will
talk to you next time.