A Podcast for Coaches

Mark Butler: Hello, my name is
Mark Butler and you are listening

to a podcast for coaches.

Coaching is this wild and wonderful
industry that is unregulated.

You don't have to have
a particular degree.

You don't have to have a certification.

You don't have a governing
body that's watching you.

You don't have An accountability system
or a reporting mechanism that would call

a coach to account when they misbehave
Other than the public square like reddit

like twitter like instagram social
media Where people can quote unquote

call out coaches who they think are
behaving badly which Is a conversation

for another day whether I think that's
a good You Accountability mechanism.

I think there are pros and cons, but
overall in coaching, you don't have

any governing body whose job it is to
make sure that we all play nice and

that we treat our clients ethically.

Now ethics of course is a broad and
deep topic and I am far from qualified.

to speak about ethics in general.

What I can't speak to is, what is
my approach to coaching that allows

me to feel ethical, to feel like I'm
behaving appropriately with my clients

and giving great service to my clients?

Because in the absence of a governing
body, in the absence of any sort of annual

recertification or continuing education
that might be required in other fields,

As a coach, it's entirely up to me to use
my own internal compass and my client's

feedback, both their direct feedback in
the form of how they talk about our work

together and their indirect feedback in
the form of whether or not they renew

their coaching with me, whether or not
they refer others to me and whether

they just seem to be happy with how
things are going in our relationship.

Those are the only things I have to, to
gauge, not just whether I'm effective,

but whether I'm doing this in a way
that's appropriate, healthy, and ethical.

So I know that I have a way of being,
but I've never codified it for myself.

I've never stood up at my
whiteboard, which is just over

here to my right, of course.

And I've never asked myself, what
do I think are my foundational

behaviors, my foundational ideas.

That helped me feel like an ethical coach.

So let's talk about this
for a few minutes today.

I've got maybe six or
seven bullet points here.

Spend a couple of minutes on each.

And I don't imagine this is an exhaustive
or a perfectly articulated list.

All I hope to do with this episode is
to get you thinking about what would

be your code of ethics, because both
the challenge and the beauty of our

industry is that it is unregulated.

And so it will always be up to
us to determine how we want to

be , and whether or not that's
in highest service of the client.

So I have all of this
under two main headings.

The first heading is
prioritize the client's agency.

I believe the foundation of an
ethical interaction with a client

is a recognition that they are
sovereign in the relationship.

That the reason they're coming to me
is to guide them through self discovery

through self direction, probably some
self acceptance along the way, but

that they are not coming to me to
tell them what to think, how to think,

what to do, what to say, or how to be.

There's an inevitability to the exposure
of my biases, my opinions, my personal

philosophy, but I have the assumption
that if they're in a coaching relationship

with me in the first place, they have
some sense of my personal philosophy

and there must be just enough overlap
between what they understand theirs to

be and what they understand mine to be.

Okay.

that they feel safe starting the
relationship in the first place.

But even where we acknowledge and
are excited about the overlap in our

personal philosophies, I want them
to remember that in our coaching

interaction, they are sovereign.

Their insight, their wisdom, their agency
are the priority in our interaction.

When I say the client, I'm including
the client's personal philosophy.

I'm including their belief or
lack of belief in a higher power.

If I have a client who is an
atheist, then that will be the

frame through which we look at their
thoughts and feelings and actions.

If I have a client who's a Christian,
I'm very comfortable with that.

That's my culture.

That's my philosophy.

So we can bring that kind of language and
that kind of ethic into the interaction.

But for me, the foundation of
an ethical coaching exchange.

Is that I have an understanding of what
the client's guiding philosophy is, and

I have confidence that they are able and
willing to self discover, self accept

and self direct within their philosophy.

Now, if they ask me for my opinion on
their philosophy, depending on the level

of rapport we have, I will share it.

I'll share my opinion.

That's kind of in the next heading, but
the foundation for all ethical interaction

with clients As a recognition that
it's the client's wisdom that matters.

Now, if we were therapists, if we were
psychiatrists or psychologists, and

if we were dealing with particular
pathologies, I would imagine that

would still be part of our ethic.

But we might have to acknowledge
that a person's conditions, a

person's diagnoses might impact
their ability to trust themselves.

And frankly, I'm not qualified
to comment on that scenario.

If somebody comes to me and they
seem to be in that situation, I will

quickly and happily make a referral
to a qualified medical professional.

But in coaching, that doesn't tend
to be where we are hanging out.

We tend to be working on difficulties in
life, but not necessarily pathologies.

And when that's the case, it's good and
it's valid and it's ethical to trust that

the client knows who they are who they
want to be and is looking for our guidance

and making progress in that direction.

But that guidance is built on confidence
that they have their own answers.

And our job is to help
them uncover those answers.

So that's my first big heading about
an ethical approach to coaching.

It's that above all, we prioritize
the client's agency and capacity

and wisdom above all else.

My second heading and my only other
heading, when it comes to what I think

is my ethical approach to coaching.

is be trustworthy.

I don't know how many times I've
mentioned this now, but I know

I will mention it many more.

I have heard in multiple places now
research cited that says that the

particular modality that therapists
use, this isn't coaches because we

don't have good research on coaching.

As far as I know, Um, but the
particular modality that therapists

use, whether it's cognitive behavioral
therapy, dialectical behavioral

therapy, psychoanalysis, you name it.

The research says that all of
these modalities can be effective.

And the thing that defines their
effectiveness above all else is the

trust between practitioner and client.

The reason I cite this so often is that it
was such a huge relief and epiphany to me.

that I didn't have to be expert
necessarily in any particular

field or any particular modality.

What I had to do was become and stay
trustworthy for the people who are looking

to me for support and for guidance as
they self discover and self direct.

This should be a huge relief to all
coaches who think that they don't know

enough yet, who think that they have
to get another certification, who think

that they have to read a thousand more
books, consume a thousand more podcasts.

I love books and I love podcasts
and I will continue to consume them.

And I imagine I'll do lots of trainings
in my next several decades as a coach

where I try to increase my knowledge and
my skill But it's a relief for me to know

from the relative beginning of my work
as a coach, because I'm about 10 years

in, it's a relief to me to know that
above all else, if there is trust and

rapport between me and my client, then I'm
already giving them the best thing that

I can give them, which is the interaction
that happens in a space where two people

trust and feel safe with each other.

So I want to be trustworthy , for
me, being trustworthy

starts with holding space.

Now you could say holding space
as an extension of prioritizing

the client's agency and wisdom.

And it is, but I'm defining
holding space as maintaining an

optimistic, compassionate neutrality.

So it's not pure neutrality.

It's not indifference.

I'm not indifferent toward my clients.

And I don't think I could
pretend to be, I think that.

My lack of neutrality is obvious in
my facial expressions, in my tone

of voice, in the questions that I
ask, in the answers that I give.

I don't believe there's such
a thing as perfect neutrality.

And if there were perfect neutrality, I
don't think it would serve the client.

But I believe there is an
optimistic, compassionate neutrality

that looks and sounds and feels
a certain way to the client.

So that they know they're not
being judged or criticized.

They know they're not being
evaluated and they know they're

interacting with someone who cares.

That's how I describe this
optimistic, compassionate neutrality.

And I think it's the basis
of being trustworthy.

Really the rest of these bullet points
are just my way of being inside that

optimistic, compassionate space.

Or at least how I hope to be inside
that optimistic, compassionate space.

I want to listen more than I talk.

I think that's part of being trustworthy.

Maybe it sounds weird that I would call
that a part of trustworthiness, but

if you think of a person in your life
who consistently talks more than they

listen, consider the impact that it has
on the trust that you feel toward them.

There is an impact.

But if there's a person in your life
who consistently listens more than they

talk and they bring that optimistic
compassion to the way they listen to

you, I'm making the assumption that
that's a high trust relationship.

So that's how I want to be.

So I want to listen more than I talk.

And because I'm me and I'm the way I am,
I also apologize when I monologue, you

know, that old movie, the Incredibles 20
years ago, or I don't know how long ago.

There's this part where the
villain says to the hero, ah,

you caught me monologuing.

Yeah, my clients catch
me monologuing sometimes.

And when I do, hopefully I remember
to apologize for the monologue.

Now hopefully also the monologue is
of some service to the client, but if

my clients wanted long interrupted.

Speeches, they could just listen to this
podcast or a million other podcasts.

So I have to remember,
listen more than I talk.

It's part of trustworthiness.

I also want to share my instincts
and my opinions and even advice

In our coach trainings and in
our conversations about coaching.

Sometimes I think that we express a
sort of allergy to advice giving in

coaching and I'm mostly for that.

That's in service of listening
more than I talk and holding

optimistic, compassionate space

I think my clients are happy
to have me share my instincts,

my opinions, and my advice.

When they are labeled correctly.

In other words, even though sometimes I
think it's a little bit tedious the way

I talk to my clients You will hear me
say over and over again in my opinion

or I have this opinion Or something
that's coming to mind that might be

wrong, but I want to share it with you.

I'm constantly hedging When I give
my opinion You because I think that's

appropriate to trustworthiness.

Now, if we were writing a persuasive
document for writing sales copy, or

even a newsletter or a college essay,
we're told not to hedge in this way.

We're told to get rid of filler,
like in my opinion, and I think, and

I might be wrong, but I think, see,
there we are, I think, I think that

in a high trust relationship where
we're trying to constantly prove

how we are prioritizing the client's
agency and wisdom, it's appropriate to

label our opinions, our opinions, and
to say phrases like, in my opinion.

Now it can get overworked.

Sometimes it's almost a joke.

How coaches sort of tiptoe
around their clients.

And in group settings, it can be
kind of funny sometimes when coaches

are constantly sort of apologizing
and trying to avoid stepping on each

other's toes and on their clients toes.

And we can overwork this principle.

I acknowledge it.

I just bring it in, hopefully in as
smooth a way as possible with simple

phrases like, well, here's an opinion.

I want to run this by you.

Tell me if it's wrong.

Tell me to what degree it resonates.

Or I'll even say, I'm probably wrong.

Here's an opinion.

Tell me why I'm wrong or right.

And I'm doing that in service of trying
to draw something more from the client

from their wisdom from their insight
their experience And it's always a great

relief to me and it's very gratifying
to me When a client will use a simple

expression like that where I do share an
insight or an opinion properly labeled

And they jump off of it in a new direction
that I wasn't expecting That is the

thing that helps them have some sort of a
breakthrough and make their own progress

sharing appropriately labeled
opinions and insights is a way of

collaborating with our clients without
putting ourselves above our clients.

Because if all we do is share advice,
if all we do is share opinions and

insights, and if we present them as
fact, now we've changed the relationship.

Now, not only in my opinion,
are we not being trustworthy,

but we're not prioritizing the
client's agency and wisdom.

So there's a balance to be
struck here, but I don't think

it's that hard of a balance,
especially with practice and care.

Along those same lines, when we're
sharing opinions and insights, and

even advice, we want to make sure that
our internal state is clean and clear.

And we're avoiding judgmental and
critical words and judgmental critical

thoughts, because I don't know about
you, but when I'm feeling judgmental,

critical and negative toward an idea or
toward a client, I think it makes its

way to my face and to my tone of voice.

And I got to tell you, it
feels horrible when it happens.

I'm imperfect.

Um, maybe I'm having a bad day.

Maybe the topic that a client
and I are talking about strikes a

particular nerve in me, or maybe it
connects with some sort of insecurity

in me or some past bad experience.

And maybe I have a negative
emotional reaction.

And even though the client doesn't
see any of that, maybe it makes

its way out of me in the moment
as something that's judgmental

or harsh or can be construed as.

Just not right for the tone
of the relationship that we've

tried to establish with a client.

It doesn't happen often, but I
can tell you that when it happens,

it feels bad enough to me that
the experiences stick to me.

Hopefully they stick to me more than
they stick to the client, but on the

rare occasion where it has happened,
I've tried to acknowledge it as

quickly as possible and then come back
with an apology, a sincere apology.

Even if the apology wasn't requested,
there have been experiences

where I've left a coaching call.

Maybe a day has gone by, maybe two, three,
five days have gone by, but that moment in

the session keeps coming back into my mind
and it's just not making its way through.

It's stuck.

And in that situation, I find myself
asking, okay, well, I feel bad

about it, but did they even notice?

Did they even care?

If I come back to that and apologize
for it, am I going to hurt my

credibility with the client?

Am I making an issue
where there wasn't one?

Am I putting my client in the
uncomfortable position where they then

have to comfort me about the thing
that caused me to feel discomfort?

I don't want to do that to them.

And I'll ride a little bit of a
merry go round in my head about that

moment from the coaching session,
but here's what has rung true to me.

If my goal is to be trustworthy and if my
goal is to model healthy collaboration and

healthy connection in a relationship, even
a professional arms length relationship,

like a coaching relationship, I need
to model and exemplify the ethic

that will benefit the client.

So I come back to the next session
and I say, Hey, by the way.

Last week when we talked, there
was this moment where you sort of

said this and then I sort of said
that, do you remember that moment?

And the answer often is no, no,
I don't really even remember

what you're talking about.

And then I have to push through and
instead of saying, okay, great, nevermind.

Then I have to say, well, I just
got to tell you, I didn't like

how I approached that with you.

It didn't feel right.

It came back into my mind a few
times over the course of the

week and I want to apologize.

And in every case, again, this has
happened very few times and I only say

it's happened very few times because
I'm not trying to trigger those of

you who are particularly sensitive.

And, or self doubting that you don't
now need to go to every one of your

coaching sessions with a laundry
list of, of incidents and apologies.

This happens very rarely in my practice,

but when it does happen and I
apologize in every case, the client

has either said, I don't actually
know what you're talking about.

I don't remember that moment, but.

Thank you.

Or the client has said that didn't
feel quite right to me either.

So I appreciate you bringing it back up.

And my belief and my confidence is
that those relationships are stronger

for having gone through that break
and that repair, even a micro break

and a micro repair, the relationship
and the rapport are now stronger

than if it had never happened at all.

Now am I proposing that we go be a go
be offensive or insensitive so we can

then be in this break and repair cycle
No I'm saying because of our nature as

imperfect human beings the opportunities
will present themselves And when they do

we need to act according to our ethics.

We need to be courageous and we need
to say I felt wrong about how I handled

that and i'm sorry And then we need to
trust that our client will receive it.

Well, and frankly if they don't receive
it Well, i'm not mad at them But it

might indicate that a relationship
that we might have thought was going

to proceed for the long term, maybe
it doesn't, nothing wrong with that,

but I'm looking to avoid judgmental
and critical words and thoughts.

I want to avoid bringing any kind of
negativity into the coaching interaction.

And when I do, I want to own it
and apologize for it sincerely.

This does not mean.

Hiding from our clients.

It does not mean trying to people please
our clients either, because there will

be moments where we feel inspired to
say a particular thing that we know

the client will not be happy to hear.

We will still wrap it in
the appropriate language.

Hey, there's a thought I'm having.

I want to share with you.

I don't know that this is
going to be pleasant to hear.

I want to see how it lands with you.

And then I want to talk about.

The implications of this thing
I'm about to say, we're not

hiding from those tough moments.

We're trying to make sure that those tough
moments stay clean and when they don't

and when the mess is our fault, we own
it, we apologize for it and we trust the

relationship will be stronger as a result.

Next item.

Be patient and curious about
quote unquote progress.

Now I say quote unquote progress.

Because it's the nature of the
kind of coaching that I'm talking

about that we will have ideas
about what progress looks like.

Our clients may even have come to us
with a definition of progress in the

form of, I want to stop doing this, I
want to start doing that, I want to have

this thing I don't have yet, I want to
get rid of this thing I already have.

They may have their own preconceived
notions about what progress looks like.

And we're trying to collaborate through
the self discovery, self acceptance,

and self direction processes that carry
them to that definition of progress.

But in order to be trustworthy,
we have to stay patient and stay

curious so that we can stay in
optimistic, compassionate neutrality.

Because the moment that we shift and
we say, you're not going as fast as

you should, we're Um, which actually
just means you're not going as fast

as I think you should, which actually
means I will feel better about my

coaching if I can see more concrete
evidence of its effectiveness.

As soon as we get there, we've
lost our trustworthiness.

We've broken our ethic,

so we've got to stay patient
and we've got to stay curious.

It doesn't mean that we stay silent.

I'm not silent about my clients.

Progress or lack of
progress both perceived.

Of course, just the other day.

I said to a client a
client I love and respect.

I said, Hey, we're not so very far from
the end of this coaching engagement.

And I want to check in
with you on one point.

And I brought up the point and I said,
how would you like to approach this point?

Would you like to be pushed Would you
like me to redirect us back to this

point if we go off on other topics?

How are you feeling about this thing?

And to what degree do you want me to bring
it back to your awareness in our sessions?

And how strongly do you want me to bring
it back to your awareness in our sessions?

And then the client and I had a very
productive interaction about that thing.

And the rest of our coaching
engagement, which hopefully won't

be our last, but the rest of our
coaching engagement will be better.

Not because I was impatient or
pushing, but because I remembered

I was holding space around that
point around that idea, that goal.

And I was willing to bring it
back into my client's awareness.

And say, how hard should we push on this?

But that's supported by my patience and
my curiosity and my total lack of agenda.

Last point here that
relates to trustworthiness.

If I want to be an ethical coach, I
have to stay mindful of my financial

incentives and how those financial
incentives can impact the thoughts,

the feelings, and the actions that
I bring to my client sessions.

If I have a client who is approaching
the end of a coaching engagement

and I start to feel some fear
around, what if they don't renew?

What if the client relationship ends
and I don't have someone else lined up?

Oh, I need that money.

There's the key word by the way, need.

I need that money

from that moment.

There's a very real possibility,
even a probability that my sense

of financial need will impact my
interactions with that client in a

way that I would not feel good about
if I didn't feel that financial need.

One of the best quotes I've come
across in the last couple of years

is incentives are undefeated.

And what that means is.

When there is a set of incentives
in your life, your behavior will

be shaped by those incentives, some
conscious and some unconscious.

So if you want to stay ethical, if
you want to keep your relationships

healthy with your clients, if you
want to be trustworthy, you have

to hunt down the incentives and
align them with your client's goals.

The shorter way to say that is
I never want to need a client.

I need to order my life and my business
in such a way that need doesn't feel

like part of the equation, but want
always feels like part of the equation.

I want to approach my client
interactions and my perspective

client interactions from.

Um, a feeling of desire as in I want
to help, I'm able to help, I'm excited

to help instead of from a place of
need, which is I got to get a client

really could use the money right now.

Ironically in the coaching world,
it's very often true that the coach

doesn't need the money per se.

In other words, the coach
doesn't rely on that money to

buy groceries or to pay rent.

But the coach is relying on that
money for external validation

so the coach feels successful

And that need is going to impact your
interactions with your clients in some

small ways and Unfortunately in some
big ways, but you may not recognize

those impacts in the moment Because the
incentives are invisible to you And the

way they're touching your your thoughts
your feelings and your behaviors toward

your clients are largely invisible to you

The job is to arrange my finances in
such a way that wherever I am in a client

interaction, whether I'm about to have an
initial conversation, or I'm approaching

the last session in a coaching engagement.

I want to make sure that I'm clean in
my head and my heart in both scenarios

and I can meet the client where they
are and I want them to be able to feel

that for me there's only optimistic
compassion and there is no need.

There's no sense that I need them,
that I'll be worse off if they

don't sign up for coaching with me.

To make this really
stark, let me say this.

If I'm looking for mental anchors
to keep me solid as I'm approaching

initial conversations with clients or
concluding conversations with clients,

where in both cases a transaction is
imminent, I would rather have as a mental

anchor, if this client doesn't start
or continue with me, it's no problem.

I would rather put my
groceries on a credit card.

Then bring an attitude of
need to this interaction.

In other words, I would rather
my alternative be debt than to

bring an attitude of need to
an interaction with a client.

Now I don't want debt to be clear and
I don't want anyone else to have debt.

I'm framing that in an extreme way because
I would rather have debt than poison a

client relationship with financial need.

Some of the wisest advice out there is
if as a coach, you're in a position of

financial need, meaning you don't have
a great way to pay rent or buy groceries

or keep yourself healthy, then get a job.

Let the wage pay your
rent, buy your groceries.

Pay for your medical needs so
you can stay healthy and present.

And then as you approach client
interactions, you're able to do

it purely from a place of desire,
optimistic, compassionate, neutrality,

and by extension, trustworthiness.

I think financial incentives
deserve their own episode.

We'll probably come back to that.

It shows up a lot in trainings
that coaches sell to each

other and in certifications.

That coach has offered to each other,
but for now, my suggestion to myself

and to all of us is we want to be very
aware of the financial incentives that

exist in a coach client relationship.

And we want to make sure that
those incentives stay aligned

with our desire to be ethical.

So there you have it.

A few notes.

I think there's some good stuff in
this episode, and I'm confident that

as you think about this, you'll come
up with even better stuff for yourself.

I'm also completely confident that if
the foundation of our work is the ethical

approach that we've defined for ourselves,
that it will be the thing above all else.

That guarantees our longevity
and our success in the practice.

And that should come as a great relief.

I believe coaching is a place where
the good people won't finish last.

It's where good people will finish
first and they'll be able to stay

in the game forever because they
prioritize their ethics above all else.

And that's inherently
attractive food for thought.

Thanks for spending
some time with me today.

Go to markbutler.

com, sign up for the newsletter,
short, insightful emails.

And with that, I'll talk
to you in the next episode.