A Podcast for Coaches

Hello, this is Mark Butler and you are
listening to a podcast for coaches.

A while back, I outlined a whole
episode about certifications and

then it got long and too complex.

And so then I simplified it down as much
as I could and it became a podcast about

coaches selling training to other coaches.

It's the one whose title has something
to do with, How to read a sales page.

You could go listen to it.

I think it was pretty good, but in the
last week, a listener emailed me and

said, I would love it if you did an
episode on certifications for coaches.

And I appreciated that email and
I think it's a worthwhile topic.

So, here we are today and I'm giving you
my opinions on certifications for coaches.

And as usual, we should probably
start with a story because

stories make things less boring.

So if you listened to last week's episode,
you know that as I record this, I am

still wearing a boot on my left foot.

Good news.

I'm meeting with a surgeon today.

I'm hopeful the surgeon is very confident.

We need confident surgeons.

I want the surgeon to say, don't
worry, Mark, I've got this.

It's all going to be okay.

You're going to be able
to go on walks again soon.

I'll keep you posted, but I've had an
interesting experience with this whole

foot issue and interacting with different
doctors, because many of you as coaches

will bring some of your insecurities
and some of your imposter syndrome to

the conversation about certification.

And I get it.

I don't blame you for it.

You might think that it's only in
the world of coaching, that some

people are critical of the industry
or critical of practitioners

within the industry because of the
certifications they have or don't have.

You might think that it's only therapists
looking at the world of coaching

and saying, ah, that's all made up.

There's no adult supervision
in that industry and there

can be a lot of harm there.

And it's because they lack this formal
certification and it's because they

haven't gone through a licensure process.

Well, yeah, kind of.

I think there's something to that.

I'm not upset with therapists for
having some of those concerns.

In a minute, I'll talk about how I would
give those concerns back to those same

therapists if they have those feelings.

But let's look at a world.

The world of medicine, which we all
know to be highly regulated where

people take their certifications
and their licensure very seriously,

and where I, as a consumer of their
services, also take their licensure

and their certification very seriously.

And yet,

the licensure and the certification
seems to be an insufficient signal.

To practice medicine legally, at least
here in the United States, I'm sure

elsewhere, you have to have Licenses,
you have to have certifications.

There are hoops you have
to have jumped through.

I, as a consumer of those services might
have gone through life thinking that

by virtue of having completed that,
I don't have to wonder or worry about

the quality of care that a person who's
been licensed and certified would give.

I've probably been guilty of thinking
one doctor's like another doctor.

They all played the same game.

They all passed the same tests
and checked the same boxes.

They're probably inherently
trustworthy as a result.

Well, it turns out it's not true
and not even they think it's true.

I have a foot injury So I've seen probably
three different podiatrists who are

doctors of the foot about my foot injury.

I think I've gotten great care
and advice from a couple of those.

I think I've gotten not great care and not
great advice from at least one of those.

And then the other day I was having a
conversation with my friend who's an

anesthesiologist and we were talking
about my journey with this foot.

And I was telling him who I had seen
already and who I might be seeing again.

And he got a very
concerned look on his face.

And he said, I'm going to
connect you with the husband

of one of my practice partners.

He's an orthopedist.

He's legit.

He's done X, Y, and Z
additional training things.

And when I've talked to him,
he told me, Much of his work is

correcting the work of podiatrists.

And internally I laughed and I said
to myself, see, this is everywhere.

Everywhere that humans operate.

You have territory battles, you have
tribalism, you have people's declaration

that my badge is better than your badge.

And the thing is on a case
by case basis, it's true.

And on a case by case
basis, it's not true.

Do I believe my good friend?

Yes, he's trustworthy.

When he says that his colleague Does a lot
of repair work on podiatrists mistakes?

Yes, I do.

Do I also believe that there are
amazing podiatrists who would

give me a higher standard of
care than some other orthopedist?

Yes, I do.

I believe these things exist on a case
by case and a person by person basis.

Different people choose
to check different boxes.

What I care about as the consumer of
services is when I interact with the

surgeon today, I want to have a feeling
that he's able to give me my best possible

chance of success with this injury.

I will use a bunch of signals to
decide that he's trustworthy or not.

His certifications will be a factor.

His experience is a factor.

His demeanor will be a factor.

I met with a surgeon a couple of weeks
ago and he was so unenthusiastic that I

walked out of that office and I thought,
it's not that I don't like that guy.

And it's not that I think
he was giving me poor care.

He was trying to manage expectations.

He was trying to tell me the version
of the truth that he thought was

fairest and most accurate, but he
communicated such a lack of confidence.

In my situation that I thought,
even if he's right, I don't want to

have further interaction with him.

I want to meet with someone who
still manages expectations, who still

sets the right tone for the whole
interaction, but who can look me

in the eye and say, I'm one of your
best chances at a good outcome here.

I'm not the only person who can do it, but
I'm totally confident that I give you a

great, Possibility of a good result here.

That's what I'm looking for.

I'm going to use all of these
signals, including the endorsement

of my friend, the anesthesiologist,
his, his opinion matters to me.

If he's endorsing the
surgeon, that's important.

I'm using all of these signals to go
into this appointment, hopefully today.

But I will tell you this, if I
don't get a good feeling in today's

appointment, I've already found another
surgeon who lives in Boise, Idaho,

which is a six hour drive from me.

One of her important trust
signals is that I found her by

searching my condition on YouTube.

She is a speaker on the topic.

She gets invited to conferences to speak
about my particular issue with my foot.

She speaks about it enthusiastically.

She speaks about it with great confidence.

She's licensed and
certified and et cetera.

But above all, if I don't get a good
feeling today here in Salt Lake, I will

drive myself to Idaho to meet with her

because what I want is a functioning foot.

I don't really care how I get it.

If it means flying across the country,
I'm going to fly across the country.

The licensure is a, necessary,
but insufficient signal for

me as a consumer of services.

It is exactly this way in the world of
coaching, maybe even more so, because

in coaching there is no regulating body.

People draw the closest comparisons
to therapy, I get it, I'm for that.

You've heard me say on this
podcast before I love therapists.

I love therapy,

but what matters is trust.

There are plenty of people who would
never meet with a coach because a

coach is not a licensed therapist.

I have no problem with that.

It's more likely that people
who buy coaching have some

other reason to trust coaching.

Either they are a coach or they have a
friend or a family member who's a coach.

They have a relationship that compensates
for the trust deficiency that might

come from the lack of a license, , from
a lack of permission to practice

that comes from a regulatory body.

I have no problem with any of this.

It all works out fine.

What we find in practice is
that there are great coaches

and there are terrible coaches.

We find that there are great therapists
and there are terrible therapists.

In my family, we have experienced both.

A couple of years ago, my wife, Kate, she
wanted to go see a coach or a therapist.

She found a local therapy practice.

She liked the idea of meeting in person.

She was paired with a
wonderful young therapist.

He was very young.

She's maybe 29 or
something at the time, 28.

The rapport that Kate felt with her was
exactly what you're looking for in your

relationship with your practitioner.

The therapist had some life experiences
that, that related to life experiences

that we're having in our family.

Which helped the trust.

She's a fantastic therapist.

Unfortunately, she then moved out of
the country and that relationship ended.

What we found is that when Kate went
on the hunt for another therapist,

She would come back to me and say

You're a better therapist than any
of the therapists I meet with and

I'm having a hard time trusting them.

I just, the rapport is not there.

And I said, yeah, I mean, well,
first of all, I don't know if I'm

a better therapist than they are
because I'm not actually a therapist,

but I understand what you're saying.

What you're saying is you're struggling
to feel the rapport with them that you

feel with me, given the fact that we have
lots of conversations that look a lot

like coaching and a lot like therapy.

Kate coaches me, I coach Kate.

We, we have tools.

We interact this way.

And what she's saying is in the
people that she was interviewing,

she wasn't feeling that sense
of confidence and rapport.

So she didn't continue the relationship.

She's also looked at coaches.

Sometimes she struggles a little
bit in the coaching world because.

My place in the coaching community
makes it so that it's likely that the

coach she's going to be interviewing
knows me and so sometimes she doesn't

feel quite safe in potentially working
with someone who knows both of us, etc.

It's the rapport and
the trust that matter.

We've even had a relationship
with a therapist where it just

went completely off the rails.

It was so bizarre.

I don't need to go into the details,
but what I can say is in that

moment, the official badge from
the regulating body did not help.

It did not help.

So certifications in some
industries like medicine.

We might call a necessary trust signal,
but in every situation, they seem to be an

insufficient trust signal by themselves.

So then as coaches, how do we think
about whether to do more certifications?

I think one of the things
we've got to talk about is why

certifications are so appealing.

If you grew up in the United States,
and I think other parts of the Western

world, you grew up in a permission
culture, you grew up in an authority

culture, you went to school, they gave
you information to learn, they tested

you on that information, and then they
gave you a grade based on your ability to

recall that information or synthesize that
information or analyze that information.

But there was an authority figure whose
job it was to tell you that you did

it right, or that you did it wrong.

And to certify your competence
or your knowledge in that area.

It's called a grade.

All of your grades rolled up in
what's called a grade point average.

The grade point average had
consequences to your future.

And I believe it indoctrinated us to
believe that before we do something,

especially something that we find a
little bit scary or something where

we think there's potential for us to
do harm to ourselves or to others,

we need to go get the permission
and the certification from the

authority figure before we start.

And this for me is something that
has truth in it, but is not true.

In other words, there are good
principles in there, but the

overarching message is false.

If that overarching message is,
you're not allowed to do this until

someone else tells you it's okay.

And that's just not the case.

Now as coaches, just like
with therapists,, I think

we should proceed with care.

I have had many experiences as a
coach where certain topics or certain

sets of circumstances come to me
and I will tell the person, I really

think you're going to be better in
the hands of another practitioner.

That practitioner might be a
coach that I refer them to.

It might be a therapist
that I refer them to.

If there seems to be something clinical
or diagnosable, if this seems like

something that a psychologist, a
psychiatrist, or maybe even a, an MD

should be involved in, then all the more.

So I'm going to say, I am
either qualified or not.

Nor certified because here, I think it
matters to address this issue with you.

I think that's good ethics.

I think those ethics apply equally
to therapists as to coaches.

And even though therapists will likely
have had to go through classes, And

examinations that reinforce that sense in
them, that sense that there are times when

we need to refer this person elsewhere

in practice, we have no idea whether
they will actually act on those

instructions, act based on that ethic.

The person who is certified does
not operate under the close

supervision of the governing body.

In their licensure phase, , in
the period that we might call

practicum, they're being supervised.

After they get out of that
supervisory period, they may choose

to engage in further supervision.

On a longer timescale, a person who is
prone to bad behavior will behave badly.

A person who is prone to ethical
behavior will behave ethically.

Their license or lack of license won't
be the factor that we think it should be.

To be clear, I'm not anti licensure.

There's a very real possibility that
in the next two, three, four years,

I will become a licensed therapist.

I will jump through the hoops that I just
got finished telling you are insufficient

trust signals and insufficient
guarantees of quality of care.

I still might do it.

It makes sense to me that if a person
intends to be in the coaching world,

if they intend to have a career as a
coach that would extend to 10 years

and 20 years and 30 years, I cannot
think of a reason you wouldn't pursue

licensure for the simple reason that
it opens some doors and closes none.

If my title becomes Mark Butler,
licensed marriage and family

therapist, certain doors open to me.

Where people who say, I won't work
with someone who is not a therapist,

now they're available to me.

And still, everyone who doesn't care about
the license is still available to me.

So it opens a door, it closes none.

Also, in a very practical way,

The word coach requires explanation in
a way that the word therapist doesn't

in our lexicon, in our culture, I
have this happen all the time, if

people say, what are you up to with
your, with your work right now?

Because my friends and neighbors
know me to be a person who does many

things and changes them quite often.

What are you up to with
work right now, Mark?

Well, I've got the accounting
business still really enjoying that.

And I'm doing a lot of coaching, coaching.

What does that mean?

I have conversations with people
about their thoughts and their

feelings and their behaviors and their
relationships and the title that the

world uses for that is therapist.

I once had a coaching client refer
to me to a friend in my presence.

This is my therapist.

I did not correct him because who cares

he, in that moment used the
shorthand that he knew would

require the least explanation in
his conversation with his friend,

because coach means a lot of things.

A coach is a person who works
with children playing soccer.

A coach is an executive coach.

A coach is a marriage coach.

A coach is a health coach.

A coach is a life coach.

But whether people actually understand
what therapist means, they've heard the

word enough times that they don't seek
further explanation when they hear it.

Oh, you're a therapist.

Okay.

That alone might be reason to
pursue licensure in the long run.

So when people say, what are you up to?

You can say, Oh,
practicing as a therapist.

So it opens some doors.

It closes none.

The person who emailed me probably
wasn't even wanting to talk about this.

They were probably wanting to talk
about the fact that every coach

under the sun offers a certification.

I have what's called Butler's law.

I'm claiming it.

I'm not going to trademark
it, but I'm claiming it.

Butler's law states that all coaches.

We'll eventually offer two things,
a mastermind and a certification.

Don't fight it.

Don't be mad about it.

It's happening.

The day will come where in the
post roll ad on this podcast, I

say, Oh, everyone, I'm so excited
to announce my new certification.

I'm launching a mastermind.

Let's not fight it.

It's coming, you know, it's coming.

I know it's coming.

You're going to do the same thing.

Let's move on.

It's Butler's law.

Quote me

Here are the reasons not to do
a certification in my opinion.

And there are really just two, one is
FOMO where you say, I don't want to

miss out on that certification because
I have friends and peers who are doing

it and I don't want to fall behind.

You're not falling behind.

They're not going to come
out of that certification.

More qualified than you.

They're not going to come out of that
certification more marketable than you.

You're not falling behind.

Go talk to people.

Go work with clients.

Your skills will improve.

Your relationships will improve.

Your network will grow.

You will thrive.

It's going to be great.

You're not falling behind.

The second reason not to do a
certification is imposter syndrome.

You observe some people.

No judgment.

Who've done three and five and
six coaching certifications.

There is such a thing as a person who
just absolutely adores that experience.

And I say power to you.

If you've got the money and the
time and the enthusiasm have a

blast, I really am thrilled for you.

If you're a person though, who
finishes one certification , and

due to some sense of internal lack.

Some fear that you're not good
enough, that you're not qualified,

that you can't do a good job.

You go on the hunt for the next
certification, hoping that will

solve the feeling that you have.

Well, you're a coach, you
know, that's not how it works.

So you can absolutely bury yourself
in debt, trying to solve your

imposter syndrome, or you can
acknowledge it as imposter syndrome.

You can hire a coach, you can work on
that, and you can save yourself all

those thousands and tens of thousands of
dollars in certifications, which aren't

going to make you feel confident anyway.

So FOMO and imposter syndrome are terrible
reasons to do FOMO and imposter syndrome.

They won't solve those problems.

I also think the certifications
themselves, the badges, the pieces of

paper, which are probably not pieces
of paper, but you know what I mean?

They're not going to move the
needle in your marketing directly.

They're not a strong trust signal.

Usually Except to other people
who have the same badge.

But even then it's not
a strong differentiator.

Kate and I have a good friend who now is
an office manager for a therapy practice.

This friend knows the work I do.

She knows Kate, she knows we're into
all manner of mental health services.

And she says, what do you think
of working at the practice?

And she said, well, there's
four or five, six therapists.

There's one that I would send everyone to.

He's amazing.

There are one or two who
I wouldn't send anyone to.

She gave us the name of the
one she would send everyone to.

And because I think about these
things, I went and Googled him.

Where did he get his education?

He got his education at a now defunct,
what I would call diploma mill.

A for profit university, the
master's degree probably was cheap.

It was probably relatively easy.

He checked the box.

He went into practice and
apparently he's doing amazing work.

I can assure you he would never put
that school's badge on his website.

It would, it would be a counter signal.

But the signal that matters is
that the woman who runs his office

says to her friends, he's amazing.

I would send a family member to him.

I would send friends to him.

So the badge doesn't really matter.

And unfortunately, especially in the
coaching world,, if you attach your

credibility to the credibility of the
certifying person, company, whatever,

Then if they go down from a brand and a
trust perspective, you go down with them.

I've never had a badge on my website.

I don't really believe
in badges on websites.

That's me.

What I believe in is the trust
that grows through relationships.

So FOMO and imposter syndrome are
not reasons to do certifications.

Badges are an extension of
FOMO and imposter syndrome.

I understand that the badge means
something to you because you paid

a lot of money for it and you
worked hard, maybe for the badge.

So the badge means something to you.

Please believe me.

It means almost nothing to
the person who observes it.

And in some cases it
makes them trust you less.

What will always increase their trust in
you will be the recommendation of their

trusted advisor, friend, family member,
other practitioner, the badge itself, meh.

There are reasons to do certifications.

They're almost entirely experiential.

If the experience of the certification
is enriching and challenging, Great.

That's why it's worthwhile.

Also, if the certification
puts you into a new network

and that network becomes a relationship
farm for you, and you become part

of other people's relationship
farm, that network is powerful.

And that could be a reason
to do a certification.

I was talking with a very good friend
who employs hundreds of people.

The other day, we were talking
about a certification called a

master's in, business administration.

And I said, what do you
think is the value of an MBA?

He said, network.

And I said, what else?

He said, nothing.

There's no value in it beyond the network.

It's the network.

You go through your MBA with people.

They're intelligent.

They're ambitious.

They're driven.

They go out into the world
and they build their network.

You go out into the world
and build your network.

You share networks in the future,
job opportunities, business

opportunities come through it.

It's beautiful.

It's the network that matters.

I did a certification in 2018.

I enjoyed the certification
experience very much.

It was at the life coach school.

The certification experience
has changed a lot since then.

It's no longer one that I would be
enthusiastic about sending people to,

but what mattered more was the network.

I have very close friends
from that certification.

I've had many client relationships.

If you look purely at ROI, the money
I spent on that certification has

come back to me many times over
as the relationships formed there

led to client relationships later.

I think there's some knowledge to be
had in certifications, but as I've said

in other episodes, knowledge has never
been cheaper in the history of humanity.

So information and knowledge are the
weakest good reason to do a certification

unless again, the experience is so strong
that you absorb and you internalize and

you're able to implement the knowledge
more quickly and efficiently because

of the certification experience.

I trust that.

I trust that completely.

But the information itself, if you
find yourself saying, I want to join

that certification so that I can learn
things, learn better mean experiment with

apply challenge, et cetera, because if
learn just means become aware of, then

it's not worth the thousands of dollars
you're going to spend on a certification.

I want to run a certification.

You will see me in the next
couple of years, maybe.

Launch a certification.

I probably won't call it a certification,
but it will have that intent.

I will not launch that until I'm confident
that the experience is so rich and

important and valuable that a person
should pay me those thousands of dollars.

The information itself.

Once I put all the information
together, I will very likely make

it freely available on a website.

I'll say, here's all the information.

If you want to consume it,
by all means, have a blast.

If you'd like to take that
information and implement it.

In a challenging environment, sign up
here because information wants to be free.

Experience wants to be expensive.

Implementation wants to be expensive.

Information wants to be free.

I think that's what I have
to say about certifications.

If it offers you a rich experience, if
it enhances and enriches your network, if

you just want to do it because it sounds
fun, I think these are all great reasons.

From a marketing perspective.

From a credibility perspective,
from a quality of service and

care perspective, I don't know.

I don't, I don't know that the
certifications I see in the

world are the most efficient
ways to achieve those things.

So who knows?

Maybe I'll wake up tomorrow morning
and say, no, you got that wrong.

And then you'll hear from me
again on this topic next week.

But I have thought about this a lot.

I feel pretty good about these points.

If you disagree strongly, please email me.

I promise I'll read it.

There's very low chance I'll reply,
but I am listening and I appreciate

other people's perspectives.

And with that, I'll talk to you next time.