A Podcast for Coaches

Hey, this is a podcast for
coaches and I am Mark Butler.

I wanted to share an interview with
you that I recorded well over a year

ago with my friend, Amber Smith.

Amber is a coach who has experimented
with lots of different business models.

And she's had some success in all of them.

But one of the places where Amber
and I have connected is in the

fact that she is so committed.

Too.

And so skilled in one-on-one
coaching, she has.

An incredible voice for this work.

She has great insight.

She's a student of the
work that we all do.

And I love her perspective and I've
been so excited to share it with you.

So I dug this recording
out of my archives.

I cleaned it up, gave
it some light editing.

Got ambers permission.

And with her permission, I'm
sharing it with you today.

Her name is Amber Smith.

You can find her at www dot it's
Amber smith.com and she's on

Instagram at it's Amber Smith.

So without further ado, here's
my conversation from late 2022.

With my friend, Amber Smith.

You're a coach, you're a coach
who does a variety of things.

That's part of why I wanted
to chat with you other than I

just like you and respect you.

But the background I'm going to
give on Amber is that I've known

Amber for, or known of Amber for
a while, known Amber for a while.

And when Kate and I, Kate, my wife and I
interacted with you almost a year ago now.

Was it almost a year ago?

I don't know.

I don't know when it was.

Kate said she could coach you.

And Kate never says that.

Kate has, to be clear,
Kate has never said that.

And I trust Kate's instincts
about people way more than I trust

my own instincts about people.

And so I respect you.

I respect your work.

And I think you have a lot to say to
the people whose attention I have.

The thing we actually, I want to make sure
we don't miss this is that I want to talk

to you about one on one client creation.

Yeah.

Because I think that's
how you say it, don't you?

Yeah.

I do use the word create
one on one clients.

Which I want to hear about.

And then I imagine as we talk
about that, we'll, we'll find

our way into other topics.

Yeah.

Talk to me about one
on one client creation.

What just, what comes to mind when I
even give you that, that mini prompt?

Yeah, the first thing that comes
to mind is a story, , to like

demonstrate what I'm talking about.

I have three girls, I
coached their t ball team.

I don't know if we've talked about this
story, you and I, but it's relevant

to creating one on one clients.

And I'm sitting at this t ball
game and, , another mom was there

and she's like, so what do you do?

And, you know, I'm like, Oh, I'm a coach.

And she goes, Oh, like, like Jen
Sincero, who wrote, you were a bad

ass, you know, it's like, funny.

Yeah.

Like, kind of like that.

She went straight there.

Yeah.

Like she had just finished the
book and so, , it was on her mind.

Right.

And I'm like, yeah, kind of like that.

And she's like, that's so cool.

And I was like, yeah, so what do you do?

And she's like, I'm a real estate agent.

And I'm like, that's so cool.

, how's it going?

And she's like, really good.

It was, she's in Utah.

So back in the day, , you know,
let's see, this was in 20.

And the 2020, maybe 2021 anyway.

And she was like, it's going good.

Like things are awesome.

I, I'm, I'm selling a lot of
houses and I'm like, cool.

And so we just kind of chatted
back and forth about her business.

And, , she's like, well, like, tell
me more about like this coaching

thing, you know, just in conversation.

And so I was like, yeah, well,
I talked to people that were

with a lot of entrepreneurs.

, it's a lot about, you know, just mindset.

Creating the life you want, overcoming
what you think is limiting you.

And she's like, yeah, I really need that.

I think we should talk about what
it might look like to, to coach.

And I was like, yeah, maybe like we
can talk about it maybe next week.

Okay.

But did she really go straight there?

Did she really go straight to, she
wanted to know if we should talk because

she had just read the book, right?

She's like, well, what would it
look like for me to be like coached?

Like, does, do you coach people like me?

Cause like we'd kind of just
talked and I didn't really like

feel like it was appropriate to
be like, yeah, let me coach you.

And I was like, well, we can
talk about it more next week.

Like what it might be like, you know,
cause she had admitted that she was

trying to get into luxury real estate.

And so I kind of like was
talking about what it means.

Like, I think I used the big leap
as an example of something we

were talking for like 40 minutes.

Like it was like a, it was
a coaching conversation.

I didn't call it that, but it was
totally a coaching conversation.

But my husband had been like, kind of,
I don't know, not like eavesdropping,

but kind of just right there.

And he was like, why didn't
you like sell her coaching?

Like, she obviously wants it.

And I'm like, that's not
how clients are made.

She's not actually quite ready.

She's interested right now.

You know, she's, she
thinks it's really cool.

Cause she just read this book, but like,
I don't know if she's ready to actually

like talk about coaching together.

And he's like, okay.

He's like, watch, he just
couldn't understand it.

So then the next week we're at t
ball and she's like, I can't stop

thinking about our conversation.

Like I cannot stop.

Can I, I cannot stop thinking about it.

I really want to do luxury real estate.

I'm nervous.

I think what you talked about with
like self concept is really important.

And I was like, yeah, I'm like,
I'm really glad it was helpful.

Would you want to like
schedule like an official.

Yeah.

Coaching call where we like, actually,
like I show you what I do in like

real life, not at the T ball game,
but like we can schedule a real call.

And then we did, so it was like a
month later, but she ended up hiring me.

And I feel like the process that it
went through, I think I had a little

bit of an advantage because she had
just finished that book from a coach.

Right.

So it's fresh on her mind, but even if it
wasn't just like, We started as friends

and she'd be like, I created her into a
client, but not like, I wasn't like at the

T ball game being like, Hey, I'm a coach.

Like, come work with me.

You were not handing out flyers.

The whole little billboard.

Here's, here's one of the many
things that fascinates me about this.

In, in an earlier episode of this
podcast, I talk about how I think

content's main job in a one on one
coaching business is to create a very

soft landing for people into your world.

But it did not occur to me that
other people's content could create

a soft landing into your world.

And that's what Jen, Jen Sincero's
book did for you that day.

So there is something to be said there
about how, and I'll be curious to have

you comment, comment on this, but I do
have the belief that if someone has any

sort of context whatsoever as it relates
to coaching, then they are miles ahead.

of a person who doesn't have that
context when it's time to engage

them in a coaching conversation.

What do you think about that?

What would you add to that?

Yeah, I agree.

I think I would have approached
the conversation a lot different

if she had never heard of coaching.

It'd be a very much gentler conversation
because it was front of mind.

She had just finished the book.

I think it was, it was different.

She already had her soft
landing into the coaching.

, but I've had conversations with people
who know nothing about coaching.

Yeah.

And.

They are like, so what is it?

And it's funny because I think you and
I have probably probably have similar.

Well, you talk to people
like we talk, talk.

That's when I ask questions
and they say things and yeah.

Yeah.

And the best thing that I think I
offer people is like, well, let me

just like, what if we just coached?

It's, it's hard to talk about in theory.

Like, what if I just showed
you what that's like?

Do you call it something?

In your own mind, do you
call it a consultation?

Do you call it a, what do you call it?

It's, it depends on who I talk to.

Right now I call it a chat.

You want to chat about working together?

Like, especially if it's someone
that's been in my world for a while,

if it's a coach, often they will
say, can we have a consultation?

Yes, fine.

In my mind, I don't think of it as
a consultation because I think you

and I think similarly about this.

I'm not looking to close a sale.

I'm looking to open a
relationship with this person.

So it's not always even a consultation.

It's like, Let's see if we even like
talking to each other, you know, you

just triggered my memory of, , what
you were saying to me when we were

together a couple of weeks ago
about different types of gardeners.

And I was telling you, I have an
episode of this show about gardening.

So don't let me forget.

I want to come back to that, but.

I want to go back to the moment
where you're talking with the first

conversation you're having with this
realtor, because your, your story from

your husband, I think really contrasts.

It demonstrates the two
sides of a coach's brain.

It just happened that your
husband was one half of that

brain and you were the other half.

I think it illustrates a struggle
that so many coaches deal with in the

moment of the conversation, which is
as you're talking with her and she says

to you, Oh, you mean like Jensen Charo?

That kind of coaching, how in that
moment, do you not jump straight

to a transactional attitude of, Oh,
I could probably get quote, get a

client right now, because that's
where your husband's brain went.

And that's where so many of our
friends and clients brains go.

Yeah.

Well, and what's funny is like
I first offered to , get her

in touch with other coaches.

Like I didn't think of
myself as like her coach.

Okay.

Because I didn't know, like I,
I didn't know, I don't assume

that I'm everyone's coach.

I don't walk into a room and
be like, I can coach everyone.

Like you're my, you're
my potential client.

Like the word that I've
heard other people describe.

Other, other coaches that
do this is like poaching.

Like I'm out to get you as a client.

And that's just not my style.

And it feels creepy.

Some people might say to you,
Amber, Oh, but Amber, if, if

your first thought is that.

Maybe I could help her find a coach.

Somebody might say to you, but
well, don't you value yourself?

Aren't you, aren't you
confident in your coaching?

Why are you trying to send her elsewhere?

What, what would be your reply?

Yeah.

So I actually, I listened to your
episode, the new, your newest one,

just to kind of get a feel for
what you've been talking about.

And you said something
that I resonate with.

I'm almost always fully booked.

I'm, I'm not needing clients and fully
booked based on like what you said,

like based on my inventory, right?

I have nine, I have eight
one on one clients right now.

And that feels really good to me.

I think at the time when I was
talking to her, I maybe had

five or six, but that felt.

Full to me, it's not like
I'm out there looking.

And so in my first inclination was
like, I just want to help this person.

It might, you know, it might be
some, like someone I know it might

be a real estate coach that like
only coaches real estate agents.

And so I do value my coaching, but I
don't also, it's like that juxtaposition

of like, I also don't need clients.

As you heard me say in that episode
and as you're saying now, it's, I find

it easier to generate that confidence
when I am quote unquote fully booked.

Do you remember feeling any differently
when you weren't fully booked?

What did you do back then to generate
that sort of peace and confidence to

take into those interactions with people?

Yeah, I was coaching.

Like I was having conversations often.

And I think one of the things that I don't
think enough coaches do, we can talk, I'm

curious what your thoughts are about this,
but I like positioned it, especially as

in your coach is like, you're helping me.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

You say yes to coaching.

Like you're helping me get experience,
especially as a new coach, which I

don't see very many people doing that.

No.

But like, that's where I, so I had a goal
to the coach, a hundred people for free.

And I let my whole like Yeah.

Like this is how I started.

Sorry.

I'm laughing because literally, so
this episode hasn't been published, but

literally yesterday I was, I was doing
an interview with another client of mine.

We were talking along these same lines
and I said, I have this, this urge to

invite coaches to do 100 conversations.

So this is just for those
of you listening, Amber and

I often laugh about how we.

Yeah.

Seem to run into the same thoughts
often independent of each other, but

yeah, that a hundred conversations
thing and the thing of where you're

in, you're acknowledging that they're
really helping you in those early days.

In another episode, I talked about
how when sometimes when people say I'm

considering this 10, 000 or 15, 000
mastermind and they're very early in

their business, I'll say, Hey, instead
buy a hundred gift cards and pay people.

To let you coach them with those gift
cards, get yourself in, plant a bunch

of seeds, do a lot of practicing, become
a better listener, become interested in

people it, it, I feel like it creates
this inevitability of, of, of success.

If you'll do that.

It sounds like you did it.

I did.

Well, and one of the questions
I get is like, well, how do

you become a masterful coach?

Cause like a lot of clients are
interested in how I coach and

I'm like, well, I've coached.

So many people that's how you
can't skip the part where you

coach people, you know what I mean?

And so I went right into it I think I
was gifted the opportunity of like I

didn't really have anyone in my ear at
this time I hadn't found any podcast.

I didn't find Rich Litvin yet.

Like I who's like a One of my
mentors, I would consider him.

I didn't find like the life coach school.

I didn't know any coaches.

I just like stumbled on it.

And so I just was like, I think
the best way to do it is to get

people to say yes, which means it
has to be like them helping me.

Cause I know that people
are more inclined to help.

Then like, Oh, I'll like, I want coaching.

They don't even know what coaching is.

I barely knew what coaching was.

Right.

And so I positioned it like you're
helping me if you jump on this call.

And I tried to get a hundred.

I didn't because eventually people
were like, how do we keep doing this?

I want to do this again.

Can we keep talking?

And so I got actually got
my first like 10 clients.

One of the reasons you are a
fascinating character in my, in

my mind is that you just said, I
didn't have anyone in my ear yet.

Now, I know you to be a great student
of coaching and a student of psychology

and, and self personal development.

I know you to be a great student of
all these things, but I also know you

to be a person who is not, I don't
think I've said this to you before,

but you are not in a hurry to join me.

A particular group, a dogma you,
you strike me as more confident than

most people in your willingness to
sort of make your own way through the

development of your business and your
development as a person, as a coach.

Yeah.

How did that happen?

Part of it was like, I've
always just been an avid reader.

So like if you, I'm like looking
at my desk right now, like I have a

book like called Living Untethered.

I have a book, The Prosperous Coach, which
I keep on my desk, but I also have like a

Buddhism book and a stoic, like the Daily
Stoic and Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.

Like I think I study a
lot of different ideas.

So I don't have a dogma about coaching.

I think that there's
lots of different ways.

I also came from the world of psychology.

So I think I was just exposed to a
lot of different teachers on personal

development, self help transformation.

And so I think that's just
kind of how I started.

Yeah.

And you, I mean, you seem not to
feel any particular FOMO about

like, you don't know, did you ever?

Do you ever have FOMO about, Oh, my peers
are joining this thing or my friends, or

is there ever a sense of, in you of like,
I don't really want to miss that or, or

do you just feel very sort of at rest?

I'm at rest.

I'm at peace.

I don't join things even for like the
I've joined, like I've been a mastermind,

but I joined for very specific reasons.

I didn't join to be part of
the club, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Or like to be part of the group
I joined for specific reasons for

my business development, right?

It's like not social.

Yes.

It's interesting.

It's not typical.

In my experience.

It's not typical.

Okay.

I'm going to go back to the
realtor at the t ball game.

So in the moment that you're talking
with her, you're able to stay

out of a transactional attitude.

You're not viewing her as dollar
signs in the intervening week

before the next t ball game.

Is she on your mind?

Do you have any inkling to
reach out to her or, or has she,

has she gone from your mind?

Yeah, I got busy, but my husband brought
it up a couple of times cause he doesn't

know, he doesn't really know what I do.

So he sees this, this like
opportunity and he's like, well,

are you going to talk to her?

And I'm like, like, what do you mean?

He's like, are you gonna like message
her on Instagram or something?

And I'm like, no.

No, no, I'm not.

I'll see her at T ball and if she asks
about it, we'll talk about it again.

Because I think.

One, the other thing that I think
you and I both have in common is

like, I study myself like I'm very
interested in why, how, like, why

do I hire the people that I hire?

Why do I study the things that I studied?

Why did I hire my first coach?

Why did I hire my next coach?

Like, and pressure.

That's never why I bought something.

And if I ever feel pressure, I'm out.

Yeah.

So I never want to give the experience
of pressure to a potential or

just, I wouldn't even like the word
potential client, like even just a

connection, a person and a friend.

So I never really thought
about her that week, even the

phrase potential client colors.

Your, your view of her,
your attitude about her.

You you've look, I don't think either
one of us would say it's the end of

the world to call someone a potential
client, but it may hint at, it may

hint at a transactional attitude
that may not serve the relationship.

Yeah.

Well, and if people ask me like
which of these people in your

list is a potential client that
wouldn't really resonate with me.

I'm like, I don't know.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Yes.

That's actually really, really well said.

The next week at the T ball
game, she brought it back up.

Were you surprised that
she brought it back up?

I was because in my mind I'm
like, she's a busy woman.

Like it might've been
interesting in the moment.

I also know that emotions.

Like, it's just interesting how
people, what people say when they're

emotional, like she was excited.

Right.

She had just finished this book.

She met a real life coach, which is
so funny because when we get in the

coaching industry, we think we're
such like a dime a dozen, but that's

not how other people experience us.

Right.

They're like, wow.

So interesting.

And so she, like her
emotions are really high.

So I just didn't really, if I saw her
again, I wasn't even going to bring it up.

Like I was just going to
let the conversation roll.

And it did just roll.

We eventually, like in the beginning, we
were talking about our kids and the game,

we weren't even talking about business.

And then she brought it up.

Like, I can't stop thinking about our
conversation that we had last week.

You said you invited her then to a
coaching call, a coaching interaction.

And I know you're a.

I don't know if at the time you were,
you were using a prosperous coach kind

of approach, but I do know that when
you interact with people, it tends

to be purely a coaching interaction.

So then you set up a
time to talk with her.

Did you do that on zoom?

How long did it last?

What was the content of the conversation?

Yeah.

So, yeah, I've been doing the prosperous
coach approach since like 28, 2019, I

think is when I read the book and I just,
it just like landed for me really well.

So I like, like a lot of my clients, I
invented a program for her on the spot.

Like I think that this is
what would make sense for you.

The context of the conversation
was about her self concept as a

luxury real estate agent, fun store.

That story has a fun ending.

She like sold 16 million worth
of real estate last quarter.

Luxury real estate, which is cool.

Right.

Very cool.

Not like, I don't think I wouldn't
like be like because of my coaching,

but like there was a happy, we're not
coaching together anymore, but there

was a period of time where like, it
felt very daunting to her to embody

or be a luxury real estate agent.

And that's really what was on her mind.

That's what she wanted.

And so that was the whole context of the
conversation of what would that be like?

What connections do you have?

What would you have to stop
believing about yourself?

very coachy type questions.

And I think it really challenged her.

I think a lot of people who aren't
in personal development, at least

the way coaches tend to be, like
that, just that conversation alone

was very mind blowing for her.

Almost no one is doing
this kind of introspection.

I mean, almost no one, and it's, I'm,
I'm very curious as, as to why I don't

go to the idea that like, Oh, because
people are broken or because they're

bad or so I'm not sure why no one's
statistically speaking, almost no one

is doing this kind of introspection,
but when you invite them to it and

they're prepared, it is mind blowing.

I find it mind blowing and I been
doing it for years with my own coaches.

It's still mind blowing.

In the, in the coach, in that
initial coaching interaction, it's

okay if you don't remember details,
but for you, how does that, how

does that individual interaction
evolve and how does it sort of end?

What is the last five or 10 minutes
of that phone call sound like,

or that zoom call sound like?

Yeah.

So I think the way that I
operate is I'm not going to.

Sell.

I think that was another important
thing that I don't even get on coaching

calls or some people call them consult
calls with like the intention to sell.

I don't always make an offer on
those kinds of calls depending

on how it goes because.

I don't like that's, that's a pretty
big assumption but like they want to

talk about working together because all
I did was invite her to a more formal

coaching call where we could talk more.

I had, I kind of, I had like an inkling
that she might ask what it would be

like just because, because of our
other two previous conversations.

So we talked, you know, about
her self concept, what she wants.

Kind of like in the prosperous coach,
he talks about like the default

future versus the possible future.

And I made a case for her possible future
and just was really honest about what I

saw that like, I'm like, I think you're
already this person because she was,

and so I think some of her thoughts.

About her doubt and just, you
know, who am I to do that?

There's already people doing
that in Utah kinds of things.

You know, another, another coach
might not have wanted to tell her

that she's already that person.

Another coach might have wanted to
hold that because if I tell her she's

already that person, maybe she'll decide
she doesn't need to coach with me.

If I, if I somehow plant the seed that
she could be, but is not yet that person,

then, I'm creating an incentive for
her to sign up with me, quote unquote.

Yeah.

You didn't do that.

You didn't hold that back.

Why not?

I think I caught something that you said.

You said she might not
feel the need to hire me.

And that's, I think another
strong underlying belief that

I have that people can feel.

I think you have this too, is
that I don't need her to sign.

I actually don't think
anyone needs to hire me.

Yeah.

No one needs a coach.

So she doesn't.

No one needs a coach.

No one needs a coach,
but some people want one.

And I think the people who get the
most out of it just want it., I give

credit to Rich Litvin for that line.

I don't know if I'm quoting him
correctly, but I've walked around for

years now with the idea that no one
needs a coach, but some people want one.

And that is sufficient.

I can, around that one idea, I can
build an amazing practice, amazing

relationships, be part of amazing results.

Yep.

Another thing you said was I'm not
going to say she did that because of

my coaching and I know you mean that
you don't think she sold 16 million

in the last quarter because of your
coaching, but you did participate.

Yeah.

So I, but like, I think of
coaching like a tool, right?

Like if someone picks up a
hammer and builds a house, the

hammer didn't build the house.

The person picked up a tool.

She was a, she made it happen
because partially because she

hired a coach to help her.

Partially because she already
had the innate skill set.

She takes great care of her clients.

She was already giving people a luxury
experience long before she was ever

a luxury, luxury real estate agent.

Right.

She already like saw, like, I
would call it wealth consciousness.

Like she already had it.

Like I wasn't lying to her on
the call where I was like, I

already see you as this person.

Like that was just me
reflecting something that I saw.

It wasn't like paying lip service.

And so it was already in her.

So to me, it's not surprising
that she's It's killing it.

She already had it.

It's fascinating.

It's it's so, is it even, I was
about to say it's counterintuitive,

but I'm actually not sure.

I think it is counterintuitive.

I think it's intuitive, but most of
what we do acts against that intuition.

I agree.

Why do you think that happens?

Why do you think we're so prone
to going against that inner peace

that drives your way of being
with her and with other clients?

That's a good question.

I think partially what we talked about
earlier about being students, a lot of

coaches are students and they listen to
one piece of advice and take it as law.

Whereas like, I think you and I both
are having a healthy skepticism about

things where it's like, nothing's law.

So does that fit for me?

Like there are laws,
but not in what we do.

Right.

And so like, do I have
to overcome objections?

Should I not coach on a consult call?

Do I have to sell right away?

All of those things that I'm
like, those aren't alignment.

Those don't feel good in my body.

To do that, it feels unnatural to me
and I think a lot of what people feel

like they need to do it's unnatural to
them and they're like, well, it's wrong

what the way that I feel naturally is
wrong because so and so said this or

this is how it worked for so and so
instead of like checking in and like,

how does this feel to me, I think.

I've always done this was
what feels right to me.

An unfortunate thing can happen in
this world of personal development

of coaching can be that people in
positions of leadership, people in

positions of influence, maybe in large
part because of their own anxieties.

And feeling like they have to get
other quote, get other people results.

They bring urgency and anxiety
into what they're teaching.

Also, I do have an opinion that with
training programs in particular,

many training programs, we have
to build complexity into them.

So there's a reason to buy them
because if I want to create a training

program and the training program is.

Have conversations, listen to your, as
you put it, listen to the feelings in

your body, trust your intuition repeat.

It's not much of a training program.

There's not, there's not, there's,
you know, that's a one page ebook.

It's a one paragraph ebook.

So sometimes I think complexity comes in
because without that complexity, there's.

There's not much to put into my
course that I'm trying to sell

if I am trying to sell a course.

Yeah, it's going to justify what I want
to charge for it and why it's important.

Yeah.

So I can say the three steps I always
use or five keys to blah or whatever.

It's not that I think those courses
never have merit or value, but as

you said, I want to bring a healthy
skepticism to it so that I'm always

staying in tune with my own feelings, my
own sense of what's right and natural.

Yeah.

And then being very careful about which
things I pick up from other people and

which things I, I just leave on the side.

Yeah.

Cause I think that some people
don't even have that filter.

They're just like, well, this person
said this, so this must be the way.

I had the most fascinating client client
call yesterday, where would be thoughtful

about how he share any of these details.

I was on a call with a marketing.

Client's marketing person and the
client and the marketing, the client

was referring to another business and
saying that business seems amazing

and the marketing person did what I've
done so many times as the CFO guy,

he said, look, I've had conversations
with that team from that company and.

Basically, not all that glitters is gold.

What it looks like on the outside is
not what's going on on the inside.

And he said to her, your business
is stronger, healthier, and more

profitable than that business.

He basically said it's a Lamborghini
body on a Toyota Corolla, basically.

And so it's so easy for me included.

I think I, I think I've developed.

You know, my ability to to not fall into
this trap anymore, but it's so easy to

fall into the trap of it looks right.

It sounds right.

It must be right.

It's sort of ticking all
my lower brain boxes.

And so it must be right.

And I'm trying to, and I know you are too.

I'm trying to get people to just raise
their sensitivity and their awareness

of what really might be going on.

Well, and I think one of the questions
that I think you and I talked about

this when we were at the conference,
but like, Do you want to be a CEO?

I don't know if we use these
words, but did you want to be

a CEO or did you want to have
powerful conversations with people?

Not that CEOs don't, it's just
their job title is different, right?

A training business is a lot of
CEO work versus like one of the

things that I got into this for.

And one of the things that I
love about it is having powerful

conversations with real people.

One to one.

And if that's your goal, there's,
there's not a whole lot to it.

I mean, there's a lot to it, but
the steps can be written on a,

on a three by five note card.

Pretty much.

How do you think I you're, you're a mom.

You said you have three girls.

Your kids are young.

Are they not?

Yeah.

Yeah, six, four, and two.

I know you're very thoughtful
and intentional about your

work day and your work week.

Will you describe it and your,
and your thoughts around it?

Yeah.

So I, I only work, like I have a
fuller day Monday and Wednesday,

but like even on my work days, I
go to pick them up from school.

So it's like, I'm not
working the whole day.

I do lunch with them.

That was always important to me.

So I work Mondays and Wednesdays.

This week was weird.

I have you and then I have another client.

Anyway, this is an anomaly.

This is not super common,
but my nanny's here today.

And I'm always mindful of the lifestyle,
which is why I love one on one coaching.

I think most people, it's like you
get to decide when you work and

when you don't, who you take and
who you don't like, what vacations

you take and you know what I mean?

The freedom.

So that was always important to me.

And I think I backed.

Into coaching that way.

Cause when I started coaching, I had
basically a two year old, not even a two

year old, like a one year old and a baby.

So you've come through, you've
come through, I mean, you've got

toddler, you've got infant, you've
had a pregnancy, another infant,

now toddler, now a kindergartner.

You've been through all these
phases while building your business.

Yeah.

How was that for you?

, where did you feel friction?

Where did you feel tension?

What was it like?

I think the tension is between like my
ambition and my like, almost like the

Zen I'm like a very like Zen person's
like, like my desire to live a very

simple, innately beautiful life.

That's like kind of private.

I've always liked that.

And so the tension was like,
how do achieve my dreams?

And like do what I want to do.

I thought I was going to be a therapist.

I don't know if we talked about
that, but I always thought I

would be like working with people.

And I wanted a career that I
could be home with my kids.

So like I work probably
like 15 hours a week or so.

Which I like sometimes more,
sometimes less depending.

But I always like backed into my
business from a lifestyle perspective.

If that makes sense.

Yeah.

You had your, your lifestyle,
your, your values first.

Yeah.

Your, your business goals second.

But you do talk about some tension
between some tension in there

because you are an ambitious person.

I, I actually think you're
more ambitious than I am.

I don't know that we've really talked
about longterm goals, but I, I think you

have energy for growth and creation and
yeah, not that I don't, but I do think

you might have a little more than I do.

How, how do you, how do you maintain
your peace of mind with that tension?

Yeah, that's why I got, I do like more
deep spiritual type work where it's like

making peace with the present moment.

This is why, like, I started
studying mindfulness and meditation

because I needed to calm my mind
because on hyperdrive, right?

Like I could think about all the
things I want to create, but at the

end of the day, I also know that
that Like there isn't better than

here, you know, lots of coachy
speak, but it's not, it's truly not.

And so I think of it more
like a video game that, that

metaphor is very helpful to me.

Like, it's like a game I want to play
business is something that's interesting

to me, but it's also not everything.

And it doesn't.

It doesn't come first, it's,
it's second, and I have to do

a lot of work to remember that.

Yeah,, because of the culture we
live in, there will always be a

lot of external inputs telling you
to go faster, do more, be bigger.

Those inputs never see, they
never cease, they never get quiet.

So there's sort of a, like
brushing your teeth and flossing.

Nature to maintaining inner peace,
remembering what I'm doing, why

I'm doing it right now that there
are seasons to these things.

And this is one season and
there will be another season.

You're being honest and
admitting that you're not

completely solved on this topic.

You have to do maintenance work.

I feel the same way.

I have, I have to sort of my
coach calls it recontextualizing.

I'm constantly recontextualizing.

I made a keynote presentation,
a PowerPoint presentation with

like six slides and they all
have one big sentence on them.

And I recontextualize
with, this is what matters.

And I go back there because if not,
I have this ability to spiral out of

control with a million ideas and a
bunch of anxiety about those ideas.

And then, you know, thanks to therapy,
coaching and meditation, I have a

lot more physical sensitivity to
how my body reacts, that anxiety,

and it's a signal that tells me it's
time to go meditate or go for a walk.

It's time to look at your
keynote slides because I don't

think that work has ever done.

Yeah.

And that's why I keep paying for coaching.

And someone was like, well, what?

Like, what, what do you think
will happen if like your

clients don't need you anymore?

I'm like, it's not about needing,
it's like, it's that continual, like

the reason coaching stays valuable
is because I'm still living my life.

It doesn't end.

Right.

And so like brushing
your teeth and flossing.

I love that metaphor.

It's not that I need it or like, I'm
going to get go crazy without it.

It's just like, I like how I live when I'm
doing self reflection when I'm evaluated

my values and deciding consciously to
live my life instead of letting whoever.

dictate or sell me on an
idea that I didn't even want.

And I think that happens a lot where
we get sold an idea without really like

running it through our own filtering
system of like, is that even what I want?

Is that the lifestyle I even want?

Is that the business I even want?

I love how you always come back to
this idea of not needing it when we

were at the, we were at the thing
in Arizona together and you were

teaching so clearly the principle
of not being in a place of need.

Yeah.

It's so powerful.

You don't need your clients and it's
just as powerful to say they don't

need you, which we touched on earlier.

But something I hear coaches saying
sometimes is, Oh, my client told me

they couldn't have done it without me.

And I will push back on that and say, your
clients can and will do it without you.

That's fine.

You are fortunate enough to get to
participate in their process in whatever

way is beneficial, beneficial to them.

They can do it without you.

They will do it without you.

They don't need you.

You don't need them.

All of this is coming from a place
of desire and possibility, not lack,

not need, not can't, none of it.

Yep.

Or codependency.

Yeah.

In fact, when I hear one of my clients
say, couldn't have done it without you.

I'm like.

Hmm.

How did I let that, how
did that come about?

You know, it's almost like
something, it's like a red flag.

I'm like, okay, we need
to talk about this.

It doesn't happen often, but when it
does, I'm like, what did I miss that?

I helped her see that she's the
powerful creator in her life.

She's doing this.

That's a great point.

I think that's a really great point.

I will tell you that the way I've learned,
I've just practiced a, an instant reframe.

If a client ever tells me I couldn't have
done it without you in my head, I just

say, that's their way of saying thank you.

Yes.

That's a good reframe.

Because I believe that
they're saying thank you.

And I can say you're welcome and
still not believe that they quote,

couldn't have done it without that.

I want to.

And maybe our last few minutes here, just,
I just want to go on a little curiosity

path with you because you explore
a lot of different business models.

You're an experimenter and I know you have
stuff going on with potential for groups.

Yep.

And I'm curious just to hear you free
associate around the idea of one on

one versus small groups or big groups.

Just whatever comes to your mind.

I want to hear it.

Yeah.

So I've tried a lot and I think
we can laugh about our, you

know, past mistakes and failures.

One of the things I tried was like
a low, very low ticket membership.

And.

Didn't work out to put
it to make it simple.

But I do think it's a
different way of thinking.

I think one of the things I'm
experimenting with right now

is selling my group program.

Like I sell one-on-one.

Oh, yes.

Which has been very good for me.

Say more about this.

So like I have a consult to use
that, like, I didn't call it that,

but to use a word that everyone knows.

Like I have a consult on Monday
with someone who's like, I'm

considering joining the the Matrix.

Can we have a call?

And I'm like, yes.

Because that's like my intention
is actually to like have a call

with people about the group.

It's going to be slower and that's fine.

I'm not going to do launches.

I'm not going to do like a lot of things
that people typically think of when

they think of like a scaled program.

I'm also capping my program so I
won't take unlimited amount of people.

When I hit 40, I close it.

Why are you okay with it?

Why are you okay with
going, it going slower?

And why are you, and why are
you choosing not to do launches?

I did launches and they work like
that's the thing I think that is

interesting is like the psychology
of marketing is very powerful.

And so I got really interested in because
marketing is just applied human behavior.

Right.

And so I think marketing is fascinating,
but also like you have to know,

I heard this from Dan Kennedy.

He says, you have to know which
side of the cash register you're on.

And that really blew my mind
because I realized like we can

be influenced by marketers.

To give them money, but we can
also be on the cash register of

getting people to give us money.

But do you like that whole scenario?

Do you, do I like my
reasons for marketing?

When you think of marketing, like
deploying like urgency and scarcity and

FOMO and all these powerful, powerful,
sometimes manipulative tactics.

Was I okay with that?

And my answer was no.

And that was really, like, I'm actually
in a period of deep reflection on

kind of, because like, it's worked.

I've made a lot of money doing things that
I've learned from books and from mentors.

But is that what resonates
with me in my soul?

And it didn't.

And so I wanted to, like, immediately
apply that into the matrix where

it's like, if it's a good fit, and
it's going to actually benefit you.

Great.

I'm here when you're ready.

I'm not going to push you.

I'm not going to open it and close it.

I've done opening and closing it.

So if you know me and you're listening
to this and you're like, but you did it.

I'm like, yeah, I did.

I did do open, open and close, but
I, I'm, I had to ask myself why, and

does this actually match my values?

And that was a hard answer.

So yeah, it's going to be slower
and I'm good with that because

my business feels good right now.

It feels good to me.

I don't know how many
different ways to say it.

And it's okay for us to just
keep repeating it, but having a

business that feels good is winning.

It is the finish line.

It doesn't mean we're done growing,
experimenting, learning, expanding.

It doesn't mean that it's
the end of any of that.

It's just the end of anxious striving
and worry because my business feels good.

And that is the victory.

Yeah.

And then the tension that
you experience isn't growth.

It's how do I create more sufficiency?

How do I create more calm?

That's the tension that we
feel and it's different.

I think it's an inward journey
instead of like an outward,

how can I grow my audience?

How can I get more people journey?

And I've always been on that
side anyway, the more reflective,

deeper thinking journey.

Is there anything else
you'd want to tell people?

Who's whose ear we happen to have today?

That your mind is as good as anyone
else's, that you really can decide what,

what your business is going to be like
for you and that your ideas aren't wrong.

You should try them.

That's what I'm saying.

Try them.

You should try them.

And if it means ignoring Mark Butler
and Amber Smith, then by all means.

Go do your thing.

And when it feels right, pay very
close attention to that feeling.

Where should people, what should people
go do right now to, to engage with you?

They could hang out with me
on Instagram at it's Amber

Smith again, ITS Amber Smith.

That's probably the best
place for people to find me.

Awesome.

Well, you know, I I respect you.

I think you're doing
amazing work in the world.

Glad to have formed a friendship with you.

And I appreciate you giving time to this
to this particular audience right now.

Yeah.

You got great things going on.

I will be excited to hear that,
hear about your continued success.

Thanks, Mark.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

You bet.

Okay, everybody.

That's another episode of
the beautiful business.

And we'll talk to you next time.