A Podcast for Coaches

Mark Butler: Okay, thanks for doing this.

Joyce: Yeah, happy to.

Mark Butler: What is top of mind for you?

Joyce: top of mind is money.

Okay.

I've been thinking about a belief
that I've just realized, I've

brought with me from my teen
years, and it's becoming a problem.

the belief I have is that I am
responsible to meet my wants,

meaning, it's okay to rely on
somebody else to meet my basic needs.

Like when I was young, it was
my dad, he was the breadwinner.

And now that I am an adult and married,
my husband has been the breadwinner.

So I have.

Felt like it was acceptable to use their
support as far as housing basic needs.

But anything extra, I feel like I'm
responsible to provide that for myself.

So as a teenager, that looked like as soon
as I was of the age to get a job, I got a

job and I would pay for the fancy shampoo
that I wanted that my parents didn't

buy or the extra clothes or whatever.

So now bringing that into, now I
have relied on my husband's income to

provide needs because for the last 25
years I've been the stay at home mom.

And now that my kids are starting to
leave the nest and I have more free

time, I have been interested in.

Coaching because I've loved it so
much for myself and thought I would

love to help other people in that way.

I see so many examples of successful
coaches that are financially successful

that's very appealing to me as well.

but I've noticed that I also have
this pressure to start making

money because there are things
that I want that my husband's

income can't provide at this point.

So I feel this pressure To bring
in income, but I also have an

aversion to getting a regular job.

Mark Butler: Okay.

Joyce: So I don't know.

I have been asking myself like,
pros and cons of being an employee

versus being an entrepreneur?

And my dad growing up, he had a nine
to five job, but he also always had

something on the side that he was doing.

And as I watched him, the
last business he grew.

Was quite successful, but it also
took a lot of his time and attention,

like outside of work hours, and
I saw that entrepreneurial side

of, wow, there's really no time
that you're not thinking about it.

And I said, then I don't want that.

give me the nine to five.

I wanna turn it off.

But now that I've dabbled in it, I'm
kind of like, I love the challenge

and the learning that comes from
learning all different aspects.

And so I feel like that kind
of interests me and excites me.

But then I also have this money thing
where I feel like going the entrepreneur

route, I feel that pressure of I've gotta,
I wanna start making money right now.

I don't have time to wait for.

It to work, which I guess, I
think it has to take a lot of

time, or it seems like it has.

'cause I've been trying to do the coaching
thing for a couple years and just,

it just doesn't seem to go anywhere.

and now my husband is, I feel like
he's starting to say, so do you wanna

do something to bring in any money?

Mark Butler: Okay.

Joyce: that's where I'm at today.

Mark Butler: I have a few
questions to start us off.

you hinted at this already, but
I'm curious about the line between

what you're calling needs and what
you're calling wants as a teenager.

You described them as things like the
fancy shampoo and the nicer clothes.

what else goes under this heading for you?

not teenage you, but like now what's
falling under this heading for you?

Joyce: I guess I just want to live
more in aligned with my values.

Like I value my physical body,
so ingredients and products that

are more natural and holistic.

healthcare that is more holistic
than traditional routes.

investing in things like my own
personal development, in coaching with

personal coaching for myself or programs
for myself that I find interesting.

traveling with our kids, like planning
vacations To make memories with them

and strengthen those relationships.

So things like that, those
things feel extra right now.

Mark Butler: And if we talk about
them feeling extra, what would

you give up in order to have
any of those things right now?

all financial decisions are
about trade-offs, essentially.

So it's, what am I giving up
in order to have that thing?

So if we were to pick any of these
things, your finances at the moment

could be such that, if I wanted to
spend money on this, then it would

require me to spend less on that.

Or if it's not even about that
kind of trade off, it could be,

oh, what I'd be giving up is
the fact that I don't have debt.

That'd be the trade off.

Because maybe there literally isn't the
cash available to purchase the thing

that you're thinking about purchasing.

with that background, what are
the trades you'd be making if you

were to start spending in some of
those areas where you haven't been?

Joyce: I don't feel like, I don't
know how true this statement is,

but it feels to me like there's not
the cash to start spending those.

So it would probably be incurring debt
if I wanted to do that now, if it were

to bring in more income via me getting a
job, it would be giving up, the bandwidth

or the attention that I'm able to focus
now on building a business or whatever.

that's what comes to mind right now.

Mark Butler: So it's interesting what
you just did and it's productive.

You went, you came at
this from two directions.

First you talked about the cost of the
things that you want in cash terms.

And then you talked about the
cost of the cash in time terms.

Okay.

Which is appropriate because yeah, I
can either, spend cash on the things

I want in exchange for whatever else
the cash would've done, which in

this case, it sounds like the cash is
currently facilitating lack of debt.

And then on the other side, you're saying,
the cost of the money would be time.

And I don't know if I'm
okay with that trade off.

So I just wanna give you credit
because from the get go, you framed

up the decision space pretty well.

You've acknowledged cost and benefits
in both directions, which is what I

think, Clear money decisions require
that they require an appropriate

definition of the problem space.

And so I think you have that.

What I think is helpful is once you've
done that, you want to find out how

good your definition actually is.

And for example, you could say,
I have a general idea of wanting

to make memories with the kids.

Maybe I have a specific example
of what that would look like.

Maybe I don't.

But the more vague it is, the harder it
is to understand the available trade-offs.

Okay.

So it's the difference between saying, I
would like to travel with the kids because

I'm assuming that will make memories.

Then going a degree, much more specific,
it's saying, I would like to take

all of the kids to this destination
for this many days in this type

of accommodation with these kinds
of activities at this dollar cost.

Okay.

Once we can get to that level of
clarity, now the decision space is

really useful because I can say I
know exactly what I'm giving up and

exactly what I'm hoping to get for it.

Okay.

Joyce: That is interesting because
in my mind it feels really hard to

come up with specifics because I feel
like what I actually want is the.

Ability or the feeling that
comes with knowing that I can.

Mark Butler: Good.

Okay.

Joyce: to I, identify this is how much I
would spend on this particular specific

vacation, because I feel like if I
actually had that amount of money, it

would be hard for me to actually spend it
on that vacation, because it's more of the

feeling that I could do this if I wanted.

and to me I'm like, that just means
that I just have a lot of money

sitting in the bank and I know about
myself that if there's money sitting

there, I'm gonna keep it there,
because if I spend it, then it's gone.

So it's more of a, like I say, I want
those things, but I think it's more of

the feeling that knowing that I could,
because right now all I can focus on is.

I can't, it's not possible.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

I tend to agree with
everything you just said.

I often say that there
are no money problems.

There's no such things
truly as money problems.

There are, relationship problems.

And those relationship problems can
be relationship with self or others.

In this case, you've already
gotten yourself to a lot of

clarity, which is you have it.

Even if I had the money, I don't
know that I could let go of it.

That becomes the most interesting
line of inquiry for you.

what do you think might
be going on there for you?

why is it important to hold
on to money that you have?

Joyce: I feel like it's a security thing.

Okay.

which is interesting because I've,
throughout my life, there has never been

a time where I haven't had what I needed.

Like I've never gone without.

So it's not like I'm afraid.

And maybe that's what's
scary is that I never have.

And so I don't know if I could
survive if it were to happen.

So I better not let it happen
so I don't have to figure out

if I come out the other end.

Yeah, I think it, I think
there's some security in it.

Mark Butler: can we spend
a little time there?

Joyce: Yeah.

Mark Butler: It can be helpful when
we realize that maybe we're seeking

security and maybe that pursuit of
security is coming from some sort

of fear of the worst case scenario.

Sometimes it's helpful to, vividly
imagine the worst case scenario

because it's not here, and since
it's not here, we can pretend it's

here and still feel relative safety.

So talk through what would be a very
scary scenario in your finances.

Joyce: Say we lose our income and live
off our savings for as long as that lasts.

And so that's gone and we have nothing.

We can't meet our financial
obligations, I'm sure there's family

that could help us a little bit.

our church community, I'm sure could
step in and help for a little bit.

Mark Butler: what are your
financial obligations?

what are the financial obligations that
feel at risk if your income goes away?

Joyce: our mortgage is
really the only thing I.

That we have.

Okay.

then car insurance would go away.

So we would have our cars,
but we wouldn't drive them.

We couldn't fill 'em with gas.

I think we would just be, what comes
up is like the embarrassment of

we'd have to rely on other people.

Other people would know.

there's a lot of shame in, how could we
let ourselves get into this situation?

Mark Butler: What is the
likelihood if I ask you to just.

try to consider this as
though it's a possibility.

What is the likelihood that you end
up, without a roof over your head?

Food to eat clothes.

if we go to the most basic subsistence
kinds of things, shelter, food, clothing,

healthcare, what is the likelihood that
you find yourself without access to

those things because of a loss of income?

Joyce: I would say it would
depend on how long it lasted,

but it's not a high possibility.

Mark Butler: What comes to mind as the
thing that will protect you from it?

Joyce: We have people that would help
support us through that, and I don't

think it would, it's not like we
lose our ability to bring in income.

Maybe the current way we do it is,
but I'm sure we would figure out

another way to bring in income.

So I don't think it would be lasting and
we have those safety nets to fall back

on for a little bit if we needed it.

Mark Butler: what if for some
reason, neither you nor your husband

could generate a dollar of income?

What would be your prospects then?

Joyce: I guess I do feel like we would
be destitute because I feel like the

safety nets of family and church.

Would only go for so long,
they wouldn't be indefinite.

So there would come a point where
we would have exhausted those as

supports and then we would be left with

Mark Butler: nothing What would
be the implication of nothing?

Joyce: What

Mark Butler: Describe life?

Joyce: it would just be so hard.

Like, where's our next meal coming from?

where are we gonna stay for the night?

I just picture the people in downtown
that are living out of grocery carts.

Mark Butler: One of the ways to, Have real
clarity around the worst case scenario

is to test along the way probabilities
and it's an unscientific process.

It's a thought experiment process.

So the way I'll frame that back to
you is, describe the probability

considering the safety nets.

You've mentioned family.

Church.

Describe the probability that
you would find yourself uncertain

about your next meal or, where
you're gonna sleep that night.

Probably

Joyce: pretty

Mark Butler: low.

Why?

Probably pretty low,

Joyce: because I feel like
our relationships would

always be a resource for us.

There would always be somebody that we
could turn to, losing our stuff and our

material sustenance we would still have
our relationships and that could be a

source of providing those basic things.

Mark Butler: Yeah, it could.

My sense is that you probably aren't,
you're probably not that concerned

about that actually happening
when we talk about things going

very badly for you financially.

As I'm watching you, there's not any
obvious signs of like real emotional

resonance with the idea of being so
destitute that you don't know where

your next meal is gonna come from or
where you're gonna sleep that night.

So I don't think that on an emotional
level, I don't think that's your

definition of the worst case scenario.

'cause I don't really believe it.

I don't believe You believe it's possible.

is that fair what I'm saying?

Joyce: That's a good assessment.

Mark Butler: What that tells me is that
you actually got yourself to the truth

of the matter a few minutes ago when you
said, I would be embarrassed if something

about my material world changed so much
that it was apparent, that would be

really shameful and embarrassing for me.

Joyce: Yeah, and I was thinking a minute
ago, I think part of my identity is tied

up in being financially independent.

I've been told by my parents as well
as my in-laws, they have told, made a

comment to us that we are the only ones
out of their children who have never come

to them and asked for help financially.

and I think that has become a part of
my identity of we are smart with money.

We make good choices.

we make sacrifices so that we
don't get into, situations where

we're needing to ask for help.

And I feel like the whole
feeling I'm going for is I

need to have money available.

Sitting there is so that I know.

I won't have to ask for help.

I won't have to be in a situation
where I would have to reach out.

because that would speak to who I am,
how I see myself, and I guess maybe that

is the real fear is not living up to
that person that I think I have been.

Mark Butler: I'm not gonna ask you to name
names, obviously you wouldn't, and you

don't even have to name relationships.

But I want you to think about, does
anybody come to mind who has acted

differently than that, where you're
aware of them behaving with money in

a way that you haven't or wouldn't?

Yeah.

Can you, again, no names or
relationships, but can you just

describe the scenario to me?

Joyce: Yeah.

I knew someone that was, had
invested, they got they were a

victim of a Ponzi scheme, and so
they ended up declaring bankruptcy.

I have another person that bought
a home that was not within their

income and he then ended up losing
his job and they had this house

that they couldn't really afford.

Yeah.

Those are the two that are top of my mind.

Mark Butler: in the most unfiltered
way possible, if you try not to

catch the words as they come into
your mind and outta your mouth.

Talk to me about your feelings, just
your, give me your thought stream about

the people who, bought the house that
they seemed not to be able to afford.

Joyce: at the time I was just
like, what are you doing?

I just thought they were so foolish
and I thought that they were so worried

about what other people thought that
they made a bad choice, that they should

have been more, savvy with realizing,
how overextending yourself financially

can lead to problems down the road.

Mark Butler: So the first word you
said there was foolish, or one of the

first words you said there was foolish.

Can you say more about foolish?

Joyce: I feel like I was just
raised with such a, don't spend more

than you make type of mentality.

That it's just simple math to me.

Like how much do you make?

I feel like there's always that weight
of, being able to realize how much

is too much, what is realistic, what
is a smart way to take what you have

available and use it, make it last.

Very, we grew up very frugally.

my dad was very frugal and

so I guess that's the lens I'd look
through is just because maybe the

numbers add up right now doesn't
mean that I, that's a good decision.

Mark Butler: rate your, on one
of these, strongly disagree

to strongly agree scales.

if you can in a as unfiltered way as
possible, respond to this statement.

Spending money is foolish.

Joyce: Which side is strongly agree tan?

Mark Butler: Are you
saying strongly agree?

Joyce: It depends on what
you're spending the money on.

And that goes back to wanting
to live according to my values.

Because for me, spending money
on high quality food, organic

and whole and all the things is
not a foolish way to spend money.

Mark Butler: Okay.

Joyce: So if it's aligned with my values,
then I think that's the blessing of having

money as you get the option to choose.

which is tricky because my values and my
husband's values don't, when it comes to

spending money don't necessarily align.

And that's where a lot of
the friction comes from.

Mark Butler: Okay.

We'll get there.

Appreciate you sharing that.

the specificity of spending money
on high quality food is useful.

We can run with that for a second.

right now, are you spending money
on high quality food in the way

that you think you'd like to?

Joyce: I am pro approaching
it, but I can't.

And not a hundred percent.

Mark Butler: What percent, would
you just throw a number out?

Joyce: I would say

50, 40 to 50%.

Mark Butler: What is the obstacle
to the other 50 or 60% in your mind?

The budget?

Joyce: Yeah.

Mark Butler: Who sets the grocery budget?

Joyce: my husband and I.

Mark Butler: does the grocery
budget feel, Movable to you does,

you're saying there's friction.

Do you feel like more money could go to
groceries that isn't going to groceries?

Joyce: the actual numbers, I'm not
sure the bigger friction comes with.

would my husband and I
agree on the numbers.

He, I mean our kids are starting to
leave the home, so he's like, why

are we still spending like you, your
grocery budget should be getting

smaller because we're feeding less
people even taking into account

prices and inflation and all of that.

So I feel like I'm just trying
to, Fight for the current budget.

Mark Butler: Is this an actual
conversation that has happened?

Where does he want the extra money to go?

the grocery budget we're shrinking

Joyce: to savings.

Mark Butler: Okay.

The, I sorry to laugh, but there's
really one of two directions that can go.

It's gonna be like golf and motorcycles.

Or savings.

Yeah.

Frankly, the answer is very
revealing about a personality type.

Yeah.

and it's not a bad one either.

It's not like one's good and one's bad.

Is he like a conservatively
wired human being?

Joyce: Yes.

Mark Butler: Yes.

Joyce: Very much in his

Mark Butler: profession
and in his spending habits

Joyce: Yeah.

Mark Butler: Okay.

it's possible, and I could be wrong,
but sometimes there are people for

whom just the reduction in spending
in a category is its own victory.

And I don't know whether that
describes your husband and I don't

know whether that describes you.

It might.

Joyce: I feel like we have over the
last years, we have been so focused

on the reduction that it feels like
there's not a whole lot left to reduce.

which is probably why we're both like
looking at me saying, why don't you just

start bringing in more that might feel
better than keep cutting and reducing.

Because it feels like there's
not much left to reduce.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

And that's useful.

And you've given me the impression
that if you were to go get a job and

bring in X hundred dollars per week or
X thousand dollars per week, those are

very different scenarios, I acknowledge.

But if it's in the say X hundred dollars
per week, my sense is that it's not,

that there would necessarily feel like
a bunch of freedom to go spend that on

the highest quality foods and et cetera.

It might be like, oh good,
that's x hundred dollars per week

and they can go into savings.

There still might be conflict.

Joyce: Yeah.

that's the interesting thing is that
what I said in the beginning, how my

income has always been seen as wants.

if I started bringing in money, I
would not put it in the family pot.

I would keep it separate.

for several years I owned a music
studio, so I had my own income.

all of that money, the way that
I used it for our family was,

we were planning a vacation.

I said, oh, I will pay for the airfare.

I feel like I don't want my income to
be just put into the family pot because

then it has to go for the basic needs.

And I want my income to
be for those extra things.

I want his income to be
enough for the basic needs.

I don't want the responsibility
of meeting those.

Mark Butler: is this a spoken
or an unspoken contract

between you and your husband?

That, your money is our money,
but my money is my money.

Joyce: I don't know if it's
spoken per se, but it's definitely

how it has been in the past.

Mark Butler: Has he ever, in the past,
did he ever make comments about the

studio money and like, why does that just
get to be you at your full discretion?

Joyce: I don't recall
him ever saying that.

in some regards, I do feel like his, and
I don't know if he would agree with this,

but I've always seen his income as his.

Money.

we do have conversations about
expenditures, big ones, but I've never

felt total ownership in spending the
family money unless we've agreed upon it.

Mark Butler: and does, we've agreed upon
it mean, I'm jumping to a conclusion

here, so I want you to correct me.

Are you essentially saying that you
have deferred to him on final financial

decisions through the years other than
with the money that you generate through

a side job or a music studio, et cetera?

Joyce: so from his income, I have
some of that income that I'm in

charge of, the groceries and.

Certain things that money is
supposed to cover, and I can spend

that as long as I, have what I
need for those identified expenses.

and then he manages the rest of it.

so it is even though it's his, in
his paycheck that fills that pot.

I do feel like that's my stewardship
and the rest of it I've left is

his stewardship and he big major
things we'll talk about, but it's

really him just saying, Hey, I'm
thinking this is what we need to do.

And I'm like, okay.

Mark Butler: would that be
like a car, a home renovation?

what would be big things where
he would say, Hey, I think

this is what we need to do.

Joyce: it's basically if it's gonna
dip into savings, those bigger.

Occasional purposes.

it's funny, this is just a little example,
but I noticed that sometimes we'll go to

dinner and we'll take our kids that are
left home and we'll bring them with us.

they always say, thanks, dad for dinner.

And I'm just like, I think
we all see it at his money.

and he's the one that will
decide can we take everyone?

And if we are taking everyone, then
which restaurant are we going to?

How much are we looking at?

Those kind of decisions are his

Mark Butler: slight
tangent as we explore this.

Okay.

how do you and your
husband talk about desire?

from our conversation so far, I can tell
that you, and it seems that he both have

very strong, duty frames and, correctness
and The word needs, like the word needs,

basic needs, these kinds of things.

What kind of conversations do the two
of you have around desire or wants?

Joyce: we don't really, because,
let's imagine like just try to

dream and those conversations are
always just slapped with reality.

That could never happen.

We no, we can't even do this right now.

How could we ever, and so I just stopped.

It's too depressing.

Mark Butler: Slapped with
reality is an interesting thing

because, to call that reality,

if we were just to speak in
coaching terms, it's that

where you view possibility.

He does not.

but because he gets to rely on
current w twos and current bank

balances, we call his thing reality
as though there's no, dynamic nature

to this, that It's a fixed thing and
there's no evolution available in it.

Yeah.

Not an accountant.

He's an engineer.

Must be an engineer anyway.

Doesn't matter.

I'm just joking.

so for you to say it's too depressing to
dream and express desire, that's something

worth noticing in being aware of.

Especially with the history and
the conditioning that you have

around, the idea that there is,
foolishness to many types of spending.

It would certainly be foolish
to buy a house that you

might not be able to afford.

So the combination of all these things
are putting you in the rock between

the rock and the hard place that you've
done a pretty good job of articulating.

Going all the way back
to where we started.

Yeah.

I know that I have these desires,
but the cash may literally not

be available for those desires.

And I know that I have this time that
I could spend on money, but I don't

know if I wanna spend time on money.

And that becomes the rock and the
hard place where you're hanging out.

Joyce: Very much

Mark Butler: Yes.

And there's also this undercurrent of,
feeling invalidated in your desires

in the way that you just described,
where it's you used the word

slapped where it's slapped away.

Joyce: I've been working with another
coach on like my money mindset, and

I can get in a really good place
mentally with it until I have to

think about the family finances.

And it's such a hard work to bring
myself out of scarcity, but then to feel

like my husband is in scarcity and he's
not making any effort to change that.

And so it feels like I have a foot
in each, oh, I'm trying to think

more abundantly and, change things.

But the day-to-day reality of
our conversations around money.

Are very scarcity focused.

Mark Butler: you're describing
really well right now, by the way.

why I, for the most part, avoid
conversations and coaching

around whatever money mindset is.

I did the other day have a coaching
friend give me a definition for money

mindset that I liked, which is the first
time in 15 years of coaching where I

was like, okay, I can live with that.

I tend to avoid the phrases, money,
mindset, scarcity, abundance,

because I'm not saying you're
not doing good work there.

The reason I tend to avoid these words
is I mostly experience them as weapons.

Against self and others.

And it sounds like I get into
abundance, but he lives in scarcity.

This is why I said earlier, I
really struggle with the idea that

there's even such a thing as a money
problem, but I can see relationship

challenges everywhere all the time.

I think you and your husband would
benefit from a conversation about

conversations that sounds something
like, Hey, I've noticed that if I

talk about money or when we talk about
money, it has a certain feeling for me.

Here's how I feel when
we're talking about it.

Or, there are things I would like to share
with you, desires, hopes, dreams, and

when I share them with you, I want it to
be, An enjoyable connecting interaction.

how accessible does that kind of
conversation, whether about money or

anything else feel in your relationship?

Joyce: I think I could say something
like that and he would listen.

I don't know that it would
actually translate to much changing

in his behavior, in our
actual conversations.

Mark Butler: keep talking along that line.

What wouldn't change?

Joyce: it feels like we just look through
things in such different lenses that he

would be willing to sit and listen to me
describe whatever I see through my lens.

And he would listen and, be
very kind and open to hearing.

But he would still retain his
own lens of how he sees things.

And I do believe that you can connect with
someone without sharing the same lens.

I am not sure what that would feel like.

Mark Butler: that feels foreign
or far away, that possibility.

Joyce: We have had discussions where I
can tell that he's listening to what I

say and he has a different viewpoint,
but he is listening and sometimes he'll

even oh yeah, I've not thought of that.

Or he seems like he's
open to seeing how I see.

But then, the next day or whatever his
behavior indicates there was no change.

There was no, like he said,
oh yeah, that I like that.

I really, yeah, I see where that's true.

And then his behavior just goes
back to what it's always been.

So I don't know if connecting to me
would feel like him agreeing with

me maybe I have some unrealistic
expectation of what those kind

of conversations would result in

Mark Butler: you're right.

You might, I don't know.

the way I prefer to frame this
is not about expectations and

needs, it's about desires.

Okay.

and we can really never go wrong when
we hold on to desire and honestly and

openly share desire with the person who's
our, we're in life partnership with.

in that example, when you say, we'll have
conversations and he'll, there'll seem

to be connection and he'll validate and
he'll agree, but then I don't see a change

in behavior in a very practical way.

The thing to do is to
keep talking about it.

And to notice what isn't
there or what is there

now, if you really wanna bring
some stuff to the surface and have

some rich and meaty conversations.

Do you have savings right now?

you don't have to tell me how
much it's not really relevant.

Joyce: I don't think so.

There's not a surprise

tax bill.

Mark Butler: Actually, I was gonna
say, if there is savings, the way

to bring some really interesting
stuff to the surface would be to say,

I'm going, I would like to use some
savings for fill in the blank desire.

There would be a great conversation
that would be very useful and revealing.

Yes, it would.

and it would be incredible
practice for the relationship to

stay in a discussion of desire.

That's honest and open
where no one self betrays.

What I mean by that is, where you
say, I desire this and I would

like to use the resources on it,
and he says, that's dangerous.

That's whatever.

He says, we would never do that.

We can't do that.

He's probably gonna say we can't.

The job that you have in that moment is
not to debate him about can and can't or

for him to debate you about can or can't.

It's about, this is what I desire.

I desire this, and I like
my reasons for desiring it.

And whether I do or don't act on
those desires, I like those desires.

And I'm keeping them because that
is how I, I'm true to myself.

I'm honest with myself because
pretending that I don't have

those desires is self betrayal.

It's dishonest.

Okay.

There's this very interesting
reality where I neither betray myself

by pretending I don't desire the
thing I desire, and I don't make

it a condition of my affection.

I just hold true to myself and stay
there and feel good in that integrity,

and then try to work to create
that reality however I can in

a way that's honest and pro
relationship and collaborative

to the extent that's available.

But if we have a very strong, set
of duty ideas and responsibility

ideas, then it can be very easy to
self betray by abandoning desire.

Is that resonating with you or?

Joyce: I think so.

Yeah.

I think I probably protect my
desires, so I'm okay to hold them.

I just don't share them with him
because it brings up too much

negative emotion when he doesn't
respond in the way that feels easier

to hold those desires for myself.

So it's easier to just keep it to myself.

And figure out, I gotta bring in my own, I
gotta figure out how to meet the desires.

I'm on my own with that.

Mark Butler: And, what that does is
it now officially takes us over from

anything that has anything to do with
money and reveal something that's very

true about your experience of your
relationship, which is when it comes to

some of my dearest desires I feel alone,
I feel disconnected that Yeah, for sure.

And that is, frankly, in my
opinion, that's where there are.

Much bigger gains to be had in
terms of your overall happiness and

fulfillment than in anything that
would relate to money or consumption.

Yeah, I completely agree.

thank you for doing
this exploration for me.

This is, I would call this
a very exploratory session.

Yeah, that's been

Joyce: great.

Mark Butler: I'd like to talk again and
we can see what that session looks like.

Okay.

what feels like good homework, if any?

'cause the answer can be, no homework is
good homework, but what might like you

go, what might you like to go do with
any of the insights you've had today?

Joyce: That's a good question.

I feel like my awareness is pretty decent.

but action items, what to do.

as I'm becoming aware and do want to focus
on, like you said, they're at the end.

Like this reveals, I think
there's other relationship issues.

but my solution is always like to
keep the responsibility with me.

okay, what do I need to do?

I think I've gotten myself as far
as I can without involving him.

I've done my own work, not that
I'm finished at all, but I feel

like for the relationship, it
needs to be both of us now.

So maybe it's a conversation with him.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

for me, what you said is maybe more
profound than you might even realize

when you say something like, I've
taken this as far as I can on my own.

I don't know if you mean this, but for
me, that has nothing to do with money.

we both believe that we actually
achieve our greatest potential

in relationship, not alone.

And what we find is the hardest and
highest paying work is in relationship.

And scariest and most
exciting and et cetera.

Joyce: Yeah.

That feels hard.

Mark Butler: Good news.

It is.

Yeah, it is.

But doable.

Yeah, for sure.

And we also do come up against, it's
hard, but we end up having to choose

the hard, which hard do I wanna choose?

Do I wanna choose the
heart of the status quo?

I'm very familiar with the
heart of the status quo.

Or do I choose the hard
of a new possibility?

Joyce: that's true.

Mark Butler: Sometimes people
say, I don't have the energy, I

don't have the bandwidth right
now to mess with the status quo.

I'm gonna stay in the status quo.

Maybe try to heal or try
to get some new energy.

Absolutely.

I support that.

And then other times it's no, it's
time to challenge the status quo.

It's time to pick the difficulty of
the unknown and try for a new normal.

Joyce: Yeah.

it just brings up like the willingness
of both people, but I can only ask

and offer and see where that goes.

Mark Butler: What you wouldn't wanna
do, in my opinion, is based on your

assumption of his response, which
I do trust, don't misunderstand.

You know him, I know you know him, but
you would not want to use that as cover.

For avoiding the discomfort that you
would feel in revealing yourself to

him in a new way and at a deeper level.

Joyce: Describe what you mean by cover?

Mark Butler: it's just a different way of
saying don't use his assumed resistance

as an excuse to resist yourself.

Joyce: I see.

Okay.

Mark Butler: We do this sometimes
I don't have to expose myself in a

new way because I know how they're
gonna respond, so I get to stay in

my comfort zone and it's his fault.

Okay.

Gotcha.

Somebody does have to go
first and do the scary thing.

Joyce: I can do scary things.

Mark Butler: Yeah, I believe you.

I know you have.

Okay.

One other little side project.

I don't wanna distract you
'cause that's the good word.

you're gonna do amazing stuff there.

A little side project to reveal more of
your thinking and to make this the set

of decisions maybe a little clearer.

I would encourage you to start looking
for jobs, not because you're gonna

take one, but I think as you spend
more time in the possibility of

employment, it's going to reveal to you

More of what you would like, not
like more of the trade-offs that

are available through that decision.

And it may make it easier to take action
in some direction, either toward more,

of your own practice building or, oh,
actually I realize under a certain set

of circumstances, a job would be ideal.

Okay.

But do some exploration on that,
and just see what it uncovers.

Joyce: Okay.

I like that.

Mark Butler: But I'm gonna
acknowledge that's gonna feel

easier and there's gonna be more
dopamine available in that process.

So let me not distract you from, like the
richer, more rewarding project over here.

you have my link.

I wanna talk to you
again in the near future.