A Podcast for Coaches

Hey, this is Mark Butler and you are
listening to a podcast for coaches.

In the last two or three days,
I've had three conversations with

clients of mine about group coaching.

It's a relevant conversation for me
because, over the last six months or

a year, as I consistently bump up
against some definition of full in

my one on one practice, the question
always comes to mind, well, is it time

for me to think about starting a group?

And in fact, a very good
friend the other day.

We were talking about my practice.

She runs a large community membership.

And we were talking about the
fact that I do sometimes have to

turn away one on one prospects.

By the way, I do have
spots open right now.

So if you've ever thought about
wanting to coach with me, it's

probably a good time to reach out.

But anyway, there are often times in my
coaching practice where I am having to

turn people away because there's just
not a place for them in the calendar.

And I was sharing this with my friend
and my friend just got this kind of

confused look on her face and said,
Mark, why aren't you launching a group?

And so I had to sit with that
and I had to think about it.

Why am I not launching a group?

And today I'll tell you why.

I'll tell you why I'm
not launching a group.

But I'll also tell you why I
probably will someday and why I will

be excited to do it when I do it.

I bring that up because I'm
not anti group coaching.

I just don't view it quite the same
way other people seem to, or the way

I think it gets talked about within
the broader coaching community,

my thesis for this whole set of ideas.

Is that group coaching is not
scaled one on one coaching.

They're fundamentally different things.

So if a coach transitions from one
on one coaching to group coaching,

or if they start to do some one on
one coaching and some group coaching,

it's not that they're doing the
same thing in two different ways.

They're doing two different things.

There's overlap between the
two activities, but they

are different activities.

So let's talk about that.

Let me try to make those
ideas clear so that you can.

Find ways to productively
disagree and take those productive

disagreements into your own practice.

And to the extent that you agree,
you'll take that into your practice.

My main reason for not launching
a group coaching program is

because I'm thinking about.

What is the client
experience in that program?

And when I am a client experiencing
the thing that we call group

coaching, how do I feel?

And for me, there are some deal breaker
aspects to this experience that in order

to launch a group coaching program or
not even a group coaching program, but a

one too many experience, because that's
what we're actually talking about.

One coach and many participants, I would
have to find a way to resolve these.

Here's the first one.

One on one coaching is slower.

Group coaching is faster.

If I'm the client in a one on one coaching
experience, there's time for reflection.

There's time for silence.

There's time for consideration.

You could say that the same is true of
a group coaching experience, but it's

natural state exerts pressure against
that silence and against that reflection.

Why?

Well, a couple of reasons.

Number one, there are people
physically in the same space.

Even when it's a zoom space, there
are, there are people physically in the

same space as me and I, as the client
know that there is a person behind

me in line and that there's a person
behind them in line and the clock is

ticking toward the end of this session.

So however much the coach tells
me as the client, take your time.

We're in no hurry.

It's hard, maybe even impossible to
believe that because I can see the

faces in the little squares on zoom of
the people who are most likely waiting

to be quote unquote coached next.

Maybe even in zoom, they have
their virtual hands raised and

I see all the virtual hands.

So even when I'm supposedly able to pause
to get silent and to reflect, I know

that I've got a line of people behind me.

That's what makes group coaching
tend towards speed versus

slowness, hurry versus patience.

And there are some consequences
to that natural speed and the

natural pressure that exists in
these group coaching settings.

One is that the coaching that happens
in these group coaching settings tends

to be shallower rather than deeper.

That's not just a function of the
fact that there's a queue of people

behind me waiting to be coached.

It's also that I'm in a room
full of maybe strangers.

Now, maybe over the course of a
group coaching experience, I build

rapport with the people in the room.

So my willingness to go deep and to
self disclose increases over time,

but I'm still having to consider,
even at a subconscious level, I'm

having to consider the fact that what
I share in that setting Is shared,

not just with my coach, it's shared
with everyone else in the room.

I also have to consider that
in most of these programs, the

coaching is recorded and published.

Now, yes, that recording exists behind
a paywall and probably, and yes, most

people aren't going back to review those
coaching calls, but if I'm a client,

in that setting, some part of me is
considering the fact that other people are

listening today and that other people can
listen, people with whom I have no rapport

potentially forever into the future.

Yeah.

In my observation, clients in these
settings do tend to get themselves

past these anxieties for the most part.

But I don't think the nature
of the thing allows them to get

past those anxieties completely.

Does that mean the interaction they're
having with the coach and with the

group is a bad one or an unhelpful one?

No, it actually doesn't.

Those can be quite helpful, quite
powerful experiences for people,

but they're fundamentally different.

Then a one on one coaching
interaction where there's no

one waiting in line behind me.

There's no concern about the
recording being available to a

bunch of strangers on the internet.

There's no concern about judgment
from other people in the room.

You've heard me say before that research
shows that in the therapy world, All

therapeutic success is based on the
rapport and the trust that exists

between practitioner and client.

I don't have any reason to believe
it's different in the coaching world.

And in a group coaching setting,
those that we typically see in our

community, that trust has to extend
to the entire group in order for the

experience to be as successful as
it would be with a one on one coach.

Again, that rapport can be created and
I've seen it be created and I've felt

it with other participants in a group
myself, but it's still a different thing.

from a one on one coaching experience.

So looking at this through the client's
eyes, I've got concern about the natural

speed and the natural pressure and
the natural uncertainty that exists

in a group coaching interaction.

Not just uncertainty about the
things I've already said, but

uncertainty about how long is my time.

There are people waiting behind me
in line, but there's no particular

structure that tells me what to do.

My coaching time starts at this
time and ends at that time.

So somewhere in that interaction,
I'll start to have thoughts that

sound like I'm taking too long.

I'm talking too much.

People are getting annoyed with me.

And all of those things might be true.

And since they might be true, as
the client in that scenario, I'm

feeling that internal pressure
building and maybe I'm rushing.

And you can almost guarantee that the
coach is feeling the same pressures

from the coaches side of things.

These interactions.

Include wanting to be of service
to the person you're talking to.

Being aware of the fact that there's a cue
behind that person trying to manage the

energy in the room, wanting to make sure
that everyone else in the room is getting

what they want from the experience, which
is mostly code for being entertained.

The death of a group coaching
experience is mostly boredom, more

than lack of some other value.

The other value you want to be there as
well, but it's just boring to watch a

boring coaching interaction if there's
nothing much happening, which is what

great one on one coaching can look like.

A lot of silence, a lot of
space, a lot of looping back,

maybe some talking in circles.

It doesn't make great media.

It can make for great
individual transformation, but

it doesn't make great media.

So I, as the coach, if I'm in that
group coaching setting, I'm having

to try to produce media as much
as I'm trying to produce great,,

individual coaching experiences.

And that pressure will
also build inside of me.

What it tends to do is
push the interaction.

Toward advice giving.

So it pushes the interaction away
from inquiry and toward advice.

I had this experience yesterday.

I was doing my office hours time
with a small handful of people

who showed up to my office hours.

Some of you may be listening.

It was great to meet with you.

Lovely people.

But I noticed myself through the
course of that hour with a baseline

anxiety, a baseline concern, um, That
I'm taking too long with this person.

What about the other people?

Are the other people bored?

Am I going to get to them all?

And I heard myself going to
advice giving above all else.

I will say that I think
the advice I gave was fine.

I think it was probably good advice
in many cases, based on my experience

and what I've observed, but it was
advice giving, it wasn't inquiry.

So if I'm talking with a person and she's
explaining her business plans to me.

If we're in a one on one setting,
I will take time to go to inquiry.

Who are you?

What are your fears?

What are your concerns?

What are your past experiences?

How do you feel emotionally right now?

Are we giving enough
space to this whole thing?

But in that setting, I switch
to advice giving and I say,

okay, here's what I think.

Here's what I want you to do.

I think this is going to work.

And I do, by the way.

It's not that the advice was bad, but
good advice without the underpinning

rapport, without the trust and without
the understanding of who is receiving

the advice can become bad advice.

But it's the nature of these compressed
group interactions that pushes me

as the coach toward advice giving.

I got to tell you, it just
doesn't feel good to me.

I feel a physical
discomfort as I'm doing it.

Even as I'm aware that there's some value
and some benefit to the client in that

interaction, it's just unsettling for me.

Because of the amount of time that I've
spent in the coaching world and in my

particular coaching community, I have
also been an observer of these advice

heavy group coaching interactions and
later had the opportunity to coach The

recipient of that advice one on one.

So I'm watching the person
receive the advice in another

setting from another coach.

And then I am talking to that
same person later, one on one.

And I'm able to say that advice
was given in a hurried way.

It wasn't the best advice for that
person, given their circumstances,

given their emotional state,
given their skills, et cetera.

And now I'm talking to them and I'm having
the experience of trying to unpack and,

and disentangle their thoughts and their
desires and their plans from the fact

that they bought so heavily into some
advice that they received previously.

So the advice might be useful,
but it might be harmful.

And it might be something that either
takes a person off track or that

their one on one coach later has to
help them parse out and make useful.

Meanwhile, that other coach had
nothing but good intentions.

They were doing the most natural thing
for the environment in which they

were operating, which is to hurry
to , get through it, to get to the

next person in line, to sound clever
and insightful, to be entertaining,

maybe at the expense.

Of the person who's engaging
one on one in that moment.

These are the reasons that as a
client, it's very rare for me to sign

up for a group coaching experience
because I find the experience

on average, not very satisfying.

Even when it's not a negative
experience, it leaves me wanting.

And as a coach, the reason I don't tend
to sell these is that I'm just not sure

people are better off signing up for them.

Certainly not better off, than signing
up for a one on one coach, the thought

experiment that I run is this, let's
imagine that I have a full one on

one practice and I have a wait list.

I have 50 people on the wait list
or 20 people on the wait list.

The question I ask myself is.

Do I believe those people would
be better served by getting into a

group coaching experience with me?

Or do I believe that they would be better
served by working one on one with a

trusted coach that I could refer them to?

And let's say that dollar
for dollars, same price.

Do I think they should work
with me in a group setting?

That has all the challenges that I've
outlined already, or if I have a trusted

fellow coach who for the same money could
coach them one on one, what do I think

is in their best interest for me today?

If the goal is inquiry, insight,
deep exploration, introspection,

if those are the goals I will tell
them, I don't have room for you right

now, but I trust her, I would love
for you to work with her or him.

Because it's the nature of
the work that I believe in.

And as long as I think there can be great
rapport and trust between that prospective

client and the coach, I'd refer them
to, I'm going to make that connection.

That's how strongly I
feel about this today.

What I want is for the client
to have the experience that I

think one on one coaching offers.

I'm not as concerned with whether
or not they have it with me.

So does that mean I think there's no
place for a one to many experience?

No, I think there's
plenty of places for it.

I think that one to many experiences.

Or what we typically call group coaching.

I believe they are at their
best when they are one of two

things, when they are either a
classroom or a group facilitation.

So let's talk about a classroom first.

A classroom is a place where we have
subject matter that we're studying.

The whole group is studying some subject
matter and there's a teacher and the Share

knowledge, share experience, and ask good
questions and help the group absorb and

internalize and master the information.

I love a classroom setting.

If I thought I could make a living at
it, I would be a high school teacher.

That's how much I love
a classroom setting.

I still might do it someday.

I just can't figure out how
to make the finances work yet.

I love a classroom.

I love being a student
in a good classroom.

I love being a teacher
in a good classroom.

It's magic.

The second thing is group
facilitation in our world.

We often call these masterminds.

Ironically, what we tend to call
masterminds is very often just the kind

of group coaching that I've spent the
last, however many minutes being skeptical

about when I say mastermind, what I mean
is a group of people get into a room.

There is a facilitator and the
facilitator does the job of drawing out

the experiences and the insights and
the wisdom from everyone in the room in

service of everyone else in the room.

It's different from teaching.

The facilitator's job is not
to impart specific knowledge.

The facilitator's job is to
draw knowledge out of the room.

It's to draw questions and
insights out of the room.

That's facilitation.

I also love facilitation.

I love to be in a room where there's
great facilitation happening, and I

love to be the facilitator in that room.

Both of these are different from the
thing that we tend to call group coaching.

Now, some would say,
that's not quite right.

I've sat in group coaching experiences
and I get so much from hearing

other people get coached 100%.

But I think it ends up being
the worst of all worlds or the

most mediocre of all worlds.

When a group coaching experience attempts
to be all things at the same time, when

it attempts to be one on one coaching
as the coach engages with an individual

participant, and it also attempts to be
a classroom where the coach is attempting

to impart knowledge, and it attempts to
be a facilitation all at the same time.

I'm happiest with all of
these when they are separated.

And done beautifully by themselves.

We who call ourselves
coaches can do all of these.

I think we'll find it easier to
deliver them well, when we do

each thing on its own brilliantly,

and that's what I'm excited about.

I am excited about the possibility
of being a facilitator.

And, or a teacher in different settings

in the not to do some future, you may
hear an announcement on this podcast.

I don't have any plans yet, by the
way, this isn't me seating something

I already have in mind, but I love
facilitation and I love teaching.

So I hope that I come up with ideas
for either or both of those things

in the future because they're both
fun and they're both value added for

both client and coach, but I don't
like it when we try to cram all

those things into the same setting.

I don't think it works very well.

And I haven't talked about this in this
episode, but the group coaching that

we're accustomed to seeing in our world
is also very hard to market and sell.

It creates a lot of pressure on both
the person selling the experience and

the person being sold the experience.

And by its nature, it often
puts pressure on the coach.

To invite people into an experience that
the coach without pressure, the coach

wouldn't even want in that experience.

About three years ago I sold a
group experience and I made all

the mistakes, all the mistakes.

And one of the mistakes that I made
was I tried to sell a group experience

when my audience wasn't really big
enough such that I could invite only

people that I thought were a perfect
fit into that group experience.

So I ended up with people
who weren't a perfect fit.

And in fact, they were a terrible fit.

Enough time has passed now.

And I don't think there's any chance
that this person is listening.

I had a client sign up a client and their
spouse sign up for a group experience.

The husband would come to the zoom
calls and he would sort of participate.

And the wife was off
somewhere in the background.

I think laying on a bed.

She would not come on camera.

She, she announced that she would not
come on camera, but she wasn't going

to be a silent lurking participant.

She was going to yell from across the
room, many, many opinions of varying

relevance, whose fault is it that
that person's in the, in the group.

It's my fault.

I won't repeat that.

They asked for and received a refund.

Thank goodness.

There was another person in that
same group experience where from

the minute this person showed up
on the call, there was this rage,

this negativity, this skepticism.

And I found myself chasing these people.

Oh, let's see.

How do I make this better?

I found myself giving one
on one free one on ones.

Oh, I've got to make sure they
get the value out of this.

Until at some point, a few weeks
into the experience, I realized

what are you doing to yourself?

Give them their money back.

I ended up refunding, I think
a little over one third of the

participants, in that whole thing.

And I didn't do an
amazing job, by the way.

And the whole thing, it was just sort
of, meh, it just wasn't very great.

I did come out of that having built
some great relationships and there

were a handful of participants who
at the end of the experience, thanked

me profoundly for the experience.

Okay.

That feels great,

I give them a lot of credit for the fact
that that was a great experience for them.

But because I approached this whole
thing from the pressures that these

group coaching experiences create,
both in the sales and marketing side

and in the delivery side, I ended up
creating a ton of stress for myself,

a lot of discomfort for a handful of
participants and a bunch of refunds.

You don't have to do a bunch of refunds.

You can, you can avoid
the mistakes that I made.

But.

As you go into it, when you
decide you're going to transition

from one on one to groups, and
I put all of that in air quotes,

just experiment with my idea that
we're talking about fundamentally

different activities that have different
ways of being successful, different

ways of being a rich experience.

You don't have to repeat my mistakes.

You can sell group coaching.

You can sell the kind of group
coaching that I've been a little bit

critical of and I think that your
clients, many of them will love it.

They'll rave about it.

They'll maybe sign up again.

I'm never right in a black
and white way anymore.

I've let go of the idea that I am black
and white, correct about any given topic.

All of these things have nuance.

All of them exist on a continuum,
but I think you will thank yourself

if you go into the possibility of
selling group coaching or buying group

coaching With your eyes wide open
about what it is and what it isn't,

what it can be and can't be, and maybe
what its best format actually is.

I think all of us are in a position to
be great coaches, and great facilitators,

and great teachers, but I am skeptical
about whether all of those things

can happen in the same space at the
same time with a bunch of people.

And I'll talk to you next time.