A Podcast for Coaches

Mark Butler: Hey, this is Mark and you're
listening to a podcast for coaches.

I'm here today with a coach,
a client of mine, Paula.

How do you pronounce your last name?

Paula Ingebrigtsen.

Ingebrigtsen.

Yep.

Ingebrigtsen.

You know about the world famous track
athlete track family with that last name?

I do not.

Oh, like, like there's a Norwegian
speaking of ADHD, by the way, uh,

there's a, there's a Norwegian family
who are all absolute star studs in track.

Who shared your last name?

Paula Engebretson: I'll
have to look into that.

Mark Butler: Things are on my mind.

You are a coach.

You're a coach who specializes in
people, as far as I understand it,

people who either have an ADHD diagnosis
or see ADHD tendencies in themselves.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is that how you would say it?

How would you say it?

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

So I work with people who have
ADHD or ADHD tendencies is

how I tend to talk about it.

Yeah.

And help them basically step out of
the neurotypical box of all the ways we

think we should do things and actually
work with their brain to get stuff done.

Mark Butler: Their way of being.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

Uh, do you have an ADHD diagnosis?

I do.

I was diagnosed in 2016.

How did you come to that diagnosis?

So, uh, prior to being a
coach, I was a professor.

and I was in a training to support
students with learning differences

and they got to the ADHD topic and
they put the slide up and I was like,

Oh dear God, that's me in a slide.

And it was very eyeopening of, you
know, how it presents itself for

adults in academia and, um, went
and got a diagnosis and through

the whole process and everything.

So that's how I learned.

Mark Butler: Was there one, was there one
or Uh, two things that jumped out where

they were your particular pain points.

Uh, yeah, so it was a struggle for you.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah, it was a lot
around, uh, the working memory component,

especially in the academic space, it's.

Very challenging for me to read
like a really dense article and

actually remember what I just read.

Uh, I'd have to circle back and
keep rereading and that kind

of thing was a huge component.

And then also, um, need for a deadline,
some sort of accountability, some

sort of thing on the other side,
otherwise time just expands forever

and you can't get that thing done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mark Butler: Were you,
uh, were you struggling?

Were you frustrated?

Were you, when you saw the slide
and you saw yourself in that slide,

were you functioning at a high level
and completely happy and content?

Or were you struggling in some
noticeable ways and you said,

Oh, maybe this is the problem?

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

So I was definitely struggling.

And I think when people get.

a diagnosis.

It, it lands in a lot of
different ways, right?

People all kind of go through
the process very differently.

For me, it was a huge relief because I was
so convinced that I was just the problem

and not smart enough to be in academia.

And to be able to go, Oh, that's
why, like, this is why it's so

hard is because of these things.

Now I can actually put in supports.

It's not that I'm, like, if I'm just
too stupid, what am I going to do?

There's nothing I can do.

But now it's like, oh, I just
have working memory issues.

I just need deadlines.

Like, I need these different
things that I can work with.

So it was actually really a
relief and more empowering for

me, but of course for everybody,
there's a, is a different journey.

Yeah,

Mark Butler: that makes sense.

Um, how do you go from there to coaching?

Paula Engebretson: Yeah, so I started
like I'm working with my psychiatrist

and a therapist and getting my meds
figured out in like that whole process.

Uh, and in that process, I was
working on a lot of stuff around

perfectionism because that's
another thing that I deal with.

And that kind of led me into the
personal development space, which

then led me into the coaching space.

And Went through certification,
uh, and just knew that this is

the, the area that I wanted to
explore, uh, and to, to work on.

Cause it was.

Um, you know, my thing
that I've worked through,

Mark Butler: I I've always
had this question for you.

I don't, I don't know that I have ADHD.

I won't get tested, but
I, I read your emails.

You know, I read your emails.

You know, I like your emails.

That's part of why you're here.

And I've read your promotional
messages for your programs.

And I think they're excellent.

I've told you, I think they're excellent.

I think they're great models of
really high quality copywriting and

persuasive, uh, really good persuasive
stuff with none of the grossness that

can creep into these kinds of things.

And I also find myself thinking,
so does Paula have a hard

time corralling her audience?

Into a room, a program, like
to show up to an appointment.

I mean, I will say that, frankly, I've
never even considered signing up for a

program because I know I won't do it.

I won't.

If there's like a calendar or a, or a
sequence, I'm just like, cool, that's

going to be amazing for somebody else.

I'm not ever going to look at that
again, but I know that my way of being

isn't everybody else's way of being.

So I've always been curious.

Cause I know you have a
very successful business.

I'm your bookkeeper.

You have a fantastic business.

So have you had to deal with that?

How have you dealt with that?

Do you have people like me who are like,
Oh man, it's just like herding cats.

Like, what's it like to
be you in your practice?

Paula Engebretson: Yeah,
so I definitely do.

I will also say, I think I attract.

Um, a lot of people who are regimented
and feet that feel supportive

for them, but it's really hard.

Like they can't figure out their
level of structure that feels good.

Um, and so they're craving
it, but they can't find it.

So usually they want the syllabus,
like they want the step by step.

So I will say that there is that
component, um, but what I like

Mark Butler: for that person,

Paula Engebretson: I think it does.

Totally.

I think it does.

But within that, there's still
kind of the rebellion against,

don't tell me to do that.

I don't want to.

Yes.

Don't.

Yes.

Yes.

And so, um, I do like in my programs,
I am always trying to speak to

different learning styles and create
the freedom within the container

of like, you can do this or not.

You can try this or that
if you feel like it.

Like a lot of.

self selection.

So you have to get in the container,
but then there's a lot of room to play

within it in a way that works for you.

Mark Butler: Makes total sense.

I'm sure you navigate it beautifully.

It's funny.

You mentioned the rebellion thing.

That just reminded me
of one of your messages.

It didn't seem like too long ago, but in
one of your emails recently, you talked

about rebelling against going to bed.

Oh, bedtime

Paula Engebretson: procrastination.

Mark Butler: Oh yeah.

And I was like, Oh, I'm rebelling.

That's why I do that.

It really, it really, I was
like, that is so I still do it.

I mean, I think last night,
I think I couldn't sleep.

My sleep is horrible.

And I think I was, I think I was like
on YouTube shorts at like two in the

morning and I used to really punish
myself for that and be mad at myself.

Now I just like, whatever, this
is what we're doing right now.

Uh, I'll go to sleep eventually.

But your message about bedtime
procrastination just, I was

like, Oh, she's good at this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was very resonant

Paula Engebretson: for me.

Yeah.

It's, I mean, the whole title is
Revenge Bedtime Procrastination.

And it is.

It's this like.

You're, you're pushing back often
because we're doing all these things all

day long for other people, for other,
and we're never giving ourselves the

white space that we actually want to
watch YouTube shorts or to work on that

hobby or to like whatever the thing is.

And so we grab it at night
because that's the time we have.

Yeah.

Mark Butler: At, at high, at great cost.

Yes.

But I still do it.

And you describe my reasons perfectly.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

So that's part of why you're here
today, because, um, on this podcast,

I talk a lot about resonance and
I talk about how, where there is

resonance with a person or an audience.

It's easier for me.

It's easier to think in terms
of a person than an audience.

Audience is this nebulous idea.

I don't know.

I think a lot of people
find that very overwhelming.

I certainly have, but I talk a lot about
emotional resonance with a person and how,

when there's resonance, there is action.

And when there is not
resonance, there is not action.

And you, and I, it's a very strong
dark line between those two.

You, and you do this thing, um, with
your content where it's resonant

with me, but it's also very reliable.

In terms of how frequently you're
in my inbox, which as a person who

deals with other coaches, I think
a lot about, you know, how often

is a person sending me messages?

What's the, what's the proportion
of sort of, uh, sales or persuasive

messages versus other kinds of messages.

You strike a really nice balance there,
but as the, as the person with ADHD

who helps people with ADHD, uh, in your
case, I find you fascinating because

you're so reliable and consistent.

Paula Engebretson: Mm.

Mark Butler: Whereas I consider myself
always on the brink of disappearing

for an extended period of time Yes,
like right now today I have felt my

energy for a podcast for coaches.

I've felt my energy going in a
direction I'm like, oh, I think

a big break might be coming

Paula Engebretson: Uh,

Mark Butler: and hopefully I won't
just disappear like I often do

Paula Engebretson: But

Mark Butler: I might and you don't
and I think that's interesting

Paula Engebretson: How

Mark Butler: did we get there?

Yeah.

Or is that just not something
you've struggled with?

Paula Engebretson: No,
no, it, it certainly has.

Um, and there's, there's a couple
of things that are coming up for me.

One of them is, um, as ADHDers, we tend
to be, uh, black and white thinkers

generally, like all or nothing.

And that can be not supportive at all.

And I can really use it for me
by creating rules of like, Oh,

we just do this on Tuesdays.

This is what we do on Tuesdays.

You write an email,

Mark Butler: but then you don't

Paula Engebretson: rebel against that.

Not usually.

And because of like these other things.

So when I'm making these
rules for myself, they're done

intentionally from like a full body.

Yes.

Which sounds so weird, but
like all of me, not here.

It doesn't

Mark Butler: a full body.

Yes.

I love a describe it because I've
often described, uh, like if I'm

having a no, I'll, I'll say like, no,
it's like a, it's a total internal.

No.

Paula Engebretson: Yes.

Mark Butler: So for you to say a full
body yes totally resonates with me.

Okay.

Paula Engebretson: Yes.

So when I'm agreeing and actually
creating like a rule for myself, a

guideline, it's a support, like I want
it and it has to be a full body yes.

It can't be an intellectual should,
but that's what everyone else says.

Like everyone says I
should have a podcast.

So I mean, I guess it's kind
of interesting and then you

like talk yourself into it.

It needs to start for me
in my body of like, yes.

Mark Butler: Oh, okay.

Do you, do you, I'm just
going to get freaked.

Everybody just.

Do carry on.

I'm going to get some free coaching.

Um, do you, do you, do you
not struggle with apathy?

I struggle.

So what you just said totally
resonates with me about, um,

wanting to get to a full body.

Yes.

I feel like I lose that.

Yes.

Like it's here.

Um, I once told my coach that, Oh,
that's funny that I'm going to say

this on this podcast, but it's okay.

I'm going to say it on this podcast.

I was joking with my coach.

I'm like, I kill with middle aged women.

Middle aged women, just Mark
Butler and middle aged women.

It's just like peanut butter and jelly.

It's just like, just great.

And I was making fun of myself to my
coach because I like, I'm so inconsistent.

I said, here's what I need.

Liz, I need like 30 middle aged
women in the room next to my office.

And then every week or so I just
need him to like knock the door down

and tell me how wonderful I am and
tell me how important my work is.

And if they would just do that, I bet
I would always publish my podcast.

And I was making fun of myself and
we were having a good laugh about it.

She said, she's like, I, you're
being funny and I get it.

She said, but do you understand that
what you're also doing is you've

created this very clear model for
re contextualizing the importance of

what you're doing because you lose it.

And I'm like, Oh, she said, so if
those women were there and if they

would kick your door down and tell you
how special you are, it's not about

your ego as much as you think it is.

It's also largely about you wanting
to know what to do and when to do it.

And why it matters.

Paula Engebretson: And why it matters.

That's what's coming up for me there.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

It's like, because, because on any
given Thursday when I'm supposed to

publish this podcast, I don't remember
why it matters and I don't care.

It's just gone.

Do your rules help with that?

Do you not struggle with that or
what have you done around that?

Yeah.

Paula Engebretson: So the, the
why behind this full body, yes,

these decisions that I've made.

Again, that, that's part of it
and it has to be so compelling.

And for me, the pain I was in was
so great before I had these tools

that I'm like, are you kidding me?

This has to be out there.

Like I am so driven, create generational
change for people with ADHD.

Like that is what I want to
do because it's passed on.

And like, if I can get.

Um, tools to the parents than
the kiddos will actually know

how to navigate this stuff.

And I'm like, stop it,
go like, this is it.

Let's go.

And so it's so strong in me.

And then on the other side, it's
a topic that I'm fascinated about.

So I love to research it.

Like, I have a research brain.

I think you've mentioned on
the pod like you like to do

research and gather and learn.

I feel like I've heard
you say this before.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

Very inconsistently, though.

Okay.

And I'm a skimmer.

Mm hmm.

I, I'm gonna read the headlines.

I'm gonna read the headlines and
then act like I know about the topic.

Mm hmm.

That's more how I tend to be.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

Mark Butler: You're more of
like, you're gonna go deep.

Paula Engebretson: I do.

I like to, like, go all the
way down the rabbit hole.

Mark Butler: Love it.

Okay.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But for me, it's that why, like that
why behind it is what helps when

there's the apathy or if I'm like,
well, is this, does this even matter?

Yeah.

That's one of the things
I think can be a problem.

It gets, if somebody chooses,
Oh, I'm going to do a podcast.

I want to be consistent in my podcast.

Yeah.

And you're doing it.

Because you want to get more
clients, which is like great.

I mean, you do this for marketing and
stuff, but that can quickly lead to

like, but I've put out 17 episodes
and I haven't gotten a client yet.

What's wrong?

And like, yes, you want to look at this.

And I remember your episode on
like 200 some episodes and have

we gotten a client or whatever?

Um, yes, we want to look at that.

But also.

I can, I think it can slip into
this kind of entitlement of like,

well, I should have clients by now.

I've put out this much stuff.

I think it needs to be a different
reason to really drive it.

The consistency.

Mark Butler: The way I've described
that before is, um, in myself is I

seem to do things that I can't not do.

Like they just, they won't leave me alone.

Uh, it sounds like that is part of
your drive as it relates to supporting,

you know, the people with ADHD.

So are you telling me that you don't
really experience, uh, significant

or sustained dips in that energy?

That could be a totally unfair question.

I'm just actually curious because
I'm projecting myself onto you.

I'm curious, do you not find
yourself going through seasons

where you're like, I don't care
and I don't remember why I cared?

Paula Engebretson: I, I have gone
through that in terms of like creating?

Getting out an email, getting out an
episode, uh, I have a running list,

I literally call it my brilliant
ideas list, but it's like all of

my podcasts, like anything that
pops in my mind, I jot it down.

It's all in that one place.

And if I read through that, it can usually
make me go, Oh yeah, here are the things.

These are the things that matter.

This is why I'm doing this.

And it's all in one place.

It is.

It's just a Google Doc.

Google Doc.

Like, bulleted

Mark Butler: sure you have ADHD?

Paula Engebretson: I'm sure.

Because I think it's supposed to be

Mark Butler: like nine places.

Paula Engebretson: Nine places.

Some sticky notes that maybe
are like under your desk.

Yeah.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

You're, you've evolved.

You're, you're operating on
a higher plane at this point.

Paula Engebretson: When I was writing
my dissertation, it was all sticky

notes and all the things and all the,

Mark Butler: I've learned, I've learned.

So you can go there, you can go to
your ideas list and reading your

ideas list re energizes you for,
for the work, for the, for today's

email, today's podcast episode.

Paula Engebretson: I mean,
another, I, I see a lot of

clients, like, I love coaching.

I don't see clients just
like once or twice a week.

So when I'm interacting with them, I'm
always fueled by like, Oh, that's an idea.

That's a podcast.

I got to get that out there.

And you capture that?

Yeah.

In your Google Doc?

Like I just got off a call and I was
like, Oh yeah, I want to do an episode.

So I don't know, an hour and a
half ago, I finished my call.

I got off, we were talking about
decision making and how we spin in

like the small decisions and we're
talking about this quick strategy.

And so I jotted it down and then I went
and recorded a 15 minute podcast because

I had like the time right before our call.

I was like, I'll just do that quick.

Mark Butler: Yes.

And you do well in that kind of like
high pressure sort of, I have 15 minutes,

I'm going to record this podcast.

Paula Engebretson: That's
where I, I go up and down.

Um, like sometimes I need a lot more
spaciousness cause I want to think through

it and I, my perfectionism will come in
and it's like, Oh no, let's literally

have a thesis written on this topic.

And have you done enough research yet?

And all of that, like that's
where I can get tripped up.

Um, And so I like to use a
timeframe to push me out of my usual

tendency, which is over researching,
over preparing, over overing.

Yeah.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

Yeah.

You, you've gotten through that
with things like a doctoral

dissertation, apparently.

Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm.

Mark Butler: I don't think
I knew you had a PhD.

That's cool.

How did you do that?

So I, I find that With a lot of crying.

Yeah?

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

It's miserable.

It's miserable.

It's miserable.

Academia is not my, not for me.

Mark Butler: I, I find that, uh,
I, I'm fascinated by people who

can break big projects into small
pieces and work on them over time.

That is mysterious to me.

I tend to, I tend to be sort of, um,

I I'll do it in 15 minutes or not at all.

Paula Engebretson: Yep.

Mark Butler: And if it, and if it
extends, if it extends into another

work session, I'm out, like it's, it's
gone with the one, the one exception

being in a software development.

Okay.

What's different?

Um, there's probably, probably
there's no difference.

The, my perceived difference
is with software development.

If I'm writing code.

I can leave it and come back to it.

And it's, Oh, this is useful.

I think it's that I can leave it and
come back to it and recontextualize

where I am in the puzzle,

like, okay, I know what I want it to do.

I know where it breaks and that tells
me we're going to work on this piece

right now, and we're going to work
on it until it's doing what I want

it to do the way I want it to do it.

Paula Engebretson: So you
have a clear objective.

You know exactly where you're starting.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

True.

Yep.

Paula Engebretson: And your brain has
that just right level of challenge.

That's fun for you to
figure out the problem.

Mark Butler: Yes.

Which I, which I totally feel with
programming and I mostly don't

feel it with content creation.

That's interesting.

Paula Engebretson: I,

Mark Butler: uh, uh, a podcast episode
or a newsletter, those don't feel like,

feel like puzzles to be solved to me.

Paula Engebretson: That's so one
of the questions I'm always asking

myself is where's the friction?

There's something in the way that doesn't
make it feel easy and smooth where with

software development for you, there's
no friction or very little friction,

Mark Butler: right?

Pretty much none.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

So for me, the content creation,
because my identity is a teacher,

I have always been a teacher.

Like I did not play
house when I was little.

I played school and I
gave my sister homework.

I am a teacher.

And so my brain is always thinking
about that's really interesting.

How could I break that down?

How can I teach that?

Like what are the three steps here?

Like my brain is thinking in that process.

Or how can I write that in an email
that would be like compelling and

they could actually take action on
it, even if they did nothing else.

And so my brain is like puzzling that.

Uh huh.

And so what I'm thinking about is like,

what,

like, when you think about podcasting,
when you think about content creation,

is there anything that does feel easy?

Mark Butler: Yeah.

Hitting record and talking into a
microphone feels very easy and always has.

Uh, I've, I've made, I may have
said this on this podcast, I've,

I've definitely made this too easy.

Joke or comparison with my own coach
and my wife and with other people if

you tell me to write a book it It seems
Absurd, it doesn't even seem impossible.

It just seems like you told me to
float up to the moon Yeah, just like

a ridiculous thing to even discuss But
if you tell me that there's a stadium

with 70, 000 people in it and the
speaker canceled and we need someone

to go talk Into that microphone for
the next hour I'm like, Oh, I'll do it.

Do I have a topic or do you
just, what, what do you need?

And I will feel, yes, I'll feel nervous,
but it'll be an excited nerve and

I'll, I'll be, I'll be thrilled to
walk up the stairs onto that stage.

So when it comes to content creation,
pushing, hitting record on them and

talking into a microphone feels very
easy to me, uh, preparing for that

episode in some structured way or some
researched way feels impossible to me.

Paula Engebretson: Why do you think
you have to do it in that way?

Mark Butler: Um, I, I mostly don't at this
point, luckily, thanks to good coaching

and therapy, uh, practice, and I also
have had enough feedback where people,

my favorite compliment to receive is when
people tell me they like how I think.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

Mark Butler: And once I was willing to
accept that compliment and adopt it into

my view of myself, make it my identity,
people like how I think, well, then maybe

that means my job is to think out loud.

Oh,

Paula Engebretson: I love

Mark Butler: that.

And once I got there, uh, it became much
easier to, for example, jump back into

this podcast and record something like
25 episodes since I took a long break.

That sort of thing.

Mm hmm.

Where I struggle now is I,
I fall back into apathy.

And by apathy, it doesn't, I don't
mean I don't care about the people.

It means I don't think that
what I'm saying matters.

Yeah.

That no one is worse off if I
don't talk into this microphone.

But why would I do it?

Because I could be writing software
right now and that would be

really pumping me with dopamine.

But then I do, I'll hear from people
and they'll say, Oh, that one episode

or that one thing you've said.

And then I think, Oh, okay, I better
talk into the microphone then because it

seems to be helpful to at least somebody.

Paula Engebretson: And do
you capture those anywhere?

Mark Butler: No.

Heavens no.

How?

I mean, I don't.

Like, even

Paula Engebretson: a, have, have
someone on your team, anything positive,

feedback, throw it in a folder.

Mark Butler: Well, uh, I mean,
I don't have a team, so I would,

I mean, I could text myself.

I could text myself.

That's probably been my most
reliable form of capture ever,

Paula Engebretson: is

Mark Butler: I just send myself a text.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

Mark Butler: I've never done it with,
uh, uh, somebody, you know, thanking me

for the podcast or anything like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah, I remember
when I was, I, so when I was still

a professor, and again, I did,
was not having a great time there.

And so I was blogging
as just like an outlet.

And I remember hearing somebody say
that they created just this folder of

compliments for whenever they get crappy
feedback of like, okay, there it is.

But let me go read this
supportive stuff as well.

Um, And if we can remember
to save it, capture it.

Yeah.

Mark Butler: Yeah.

It's very helpful though.

Of course, me being the way I am
now, I'm going to go write software.

I'll, I'll.

Leave everything that it matters for like
three weeks and I'll go write software.

That's a compliment reminder system
And then I'll never look at it again

That's really also thinking I'm sorry
go ahead I was gonna say it's helpful

because if I were to Text myself if
somebody says night something nice to

me if I were to text myself Then there
would just be a text feed on my phone.

I could just scroll through it.

That would be that's low
friction Very low for

Paula Engebretson: yeah.

Yeah You Yes,

I'm thinking too for, you know,
consistent creation, whatever,

I think there's an importance in
deciding what consistency means.

Yeah.

For the person.

Right?

Does it mean every week?

Does it mean posting every day?

Does it mean, like, I love the
guideline of I don't skip more

than one day or more than one week.

Like, so it gives me the, the
flexibility of, okay, we missed it.

It's fine.

We just don't skip more than one.

In a row.

Mark Butler: Yes, I've heard that.

I'm weirdly willing to skip
more than one in a row.

That's it.

Maybe you

Paula Engebretson: extend the container.

Mark Butler: Uh, I've, one time I was
talking to a group of coaches and they

were saying, what about consistency?

And I said, well, I get to define
consistency and for me, consistency

might mean three episodes in a year.

At the time it felt like I
was lying to myself though.

It didn't, that didn't feel
like an internal truth.

It felt like a justification.

Like a rationalization.

Um, so I think that for me,
consistency might not mean weekly

probably doesn't mean I get, just get to
show up when I feel like it, that feels.

Self, self deceptive too.

Paula Engebretson: I do think it's
interesting how you mentioned, though,

you have your, you have waves, like, is
there a way, and this is for everybody

too, like, is there a way to ride
that wave where if you have ideas

and you're in flow, can you record
a handful of episodes so they're in

the, you know, in the can or whatever?

Mark Butler: Yes.

And that is something that my own coach,
Liz, has encouraged me to do because we've

talked a lot about the wave metaphor.

And she said, you probably, she
said, you could, you could create

52 newsletters in a year, but you
might create 20 of them in a day.

Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm.

Mark Butler: Uh, and
that resonated with me.

I, then you have to have a system
for taking those 20 and making

sure they get to the world.

Because I'm one that would be very
prone to having a hundred newsletters

in a folder that never get published.

I have a bunch of videos right
now actually in a folder that

will likely never be published.

That's solvable.

I realize that's, that's, that's solvable.

Paula Engebretson: And what's the,
like, cause they are the, again,

I'm like, what's the friction?

Is it, is it a decision of like what
am I going to do with these videos?

What's the point of them?

I need to make a decision or is it
the friction of now I have to go

into the scheduler and do the stupid,
tedious stuff of like, when is it

going to go out and dah, dah, dah, dah.

What's the friction?

Mark Butler: That's tons of friction.

I don't know how many, just a few
times I've signed up for like social

media, scheduling, something software.

And then I do the trial and then I
usually pay for it for one or two

months and then finally admit to
myself, I'm never going to do this.

And then I canceled it again.

So what, uh, my wife and I've talked a lot
about this cause she feels frustrated when

she, she's like, you have things to say,
they help people, but you won't do it.

And I'm like, well, I would do it.

She said, well, how do I help?

And I said, well, if I could just
Record if I could push record and

then push stop and then never and then
that's all I do then it could happen

Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm,

Mark Butler: and she said, okay.

Well, then what would I need to do?

And I said, well I guess you'd
have to go find the recordings

and publish them wherever they're
gonna be published and she's agreed

to it And then I just drop it.

I don't ever go back to it.

I think what this reveals Uh
paula because what you're telling

me is so helpful and useful.

I think I have I think I have um,
Persistent mental and emotional

stuff around publishing that that
is probably more of the friction

than the procedural friction

The procedural friction is so solvable
because either I can write software

that solves it which I love to do Or
my wife is willing to if I show her a

google drive folder She'll take that
and publish it wherever I need it to

be published I think I have deeper
resistance to publishing, period, now

that we're talking about it, now that
you're giving me this great coaching.

Paula Engebretson: Right.

Like, is it actually a full body yes?

Mark Butler: It's not.

Paula Engebretson: It never has been.

That's where it is, then.

Mark Butler: When you said this
earlier, it resonated instantly.

It's a should.

It's a should that sometimes turns
into a yes when I feel like someone

has benefited, but that actually might
just mean it's a stronger should.

Cause if someone says, Oh, your
episode about X really helped me out.

I had someone email me a couple
of months ago and say, your

episode about the urge to create
a course saved me 3, 000 that day.

And she told me the story.

Wow.

Feels amazing.

Doesn't happen.

You know, that doesn't happen often.

We're talking like
small handfuls of times.

These things happen over a lifetime, but
it's not like I have people kicking down

my door and telling me I'm wonderful.

It happens every once in a while, but
I think even in those moments, what

it does for me is it makes me think
it just makes the should stronger

because

don't add it as a baseline.

I'm not excited to publish stuff.

It's not what I'm falling
asleep at night thinking about.

It's not what I'm waking up
in the morning thinking about.

And for me, I promote
that as a big signal.

You have

Paula Engebretson: that.

Mark Butler: You do have

Paula Engebretson: that.

Yeah.

Like that is what I'm, I'm
always problem solving that.

Like, how can I teach this?

How can I share this?

Ooh, that would be a
really interesting analogy.

How can I bring that in?

Like I was literally watching Mary Poppins
the other day and I was like, That line

needs to be a podcast episode and then
it was like, I'm literally talking about

Mary Poppins in one of my episodes.

What?

Mark Butler: Yeah, but your stuff is good.

It comes through.

I haven't listened to your podcast, but
I read a high percentage of your emails.

It comes through very clearly.

Your enthusiasm for
your work is so obvious.

So that's awesome.

I'm not sure what to do
with this realization.

Paula Engebretson: I was thinking,
again, I mean, if it's just, if

it's a should, that's something
to, to sit with and notice, right.

And just to like, let that be
for, to see what else arises.

But I was also thinking about in
terms of the format, like maybe

you do better with responding.

If people sending questions,
is it easier for you to hop on

and just speak to the question?

Mark Butler: Definitely.

Paula Engebretson: You know, like.

Yes.

Everybody just send in their questions.

What do you think about this?

And you're like, Let me
tell you in 15 minutes.

Here we go.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Mark Butler: Much, much easier.

So easy.

But I tell myself a story that
those are questionably useful.

Really?

I do.

I know.

And I know that we'll find evidence
that I'm wrong, but I can also

find evidence that I'm right.

Uh, it's actually, I said this, I do this
office hours thing where people can just

show up and do exactly what you just said,
it's free and people show up and we chat.

And I told the people there that that
experience for me is simultaneously

pretty exhilarating and I enjoy it a lot.

But the rest of those days that I do those
sessions, my anxiety is way elevated in

large part because I don't remember what
I said and I don't remember if it was.

Like the three things, uh, my friend,
Jody Moore gave me this a long time ago.

She, she recommended a book to
me and this was in the book.

When we talk to ourselves, we always
want to be saying, you know, is it true?

Is it kind?

And is it useful?

Which I think is a brilliant filter that
I don't, I find that when I do these

live Q and a sessions, I can't look
back later in the day and easily know

whether it was true, kind, or useful.

And I, and I get really,
uh, dysregulated around it.

So it's super easy in the moment and then
like stressful for the rest of the day.

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

Through an ADHD lens.

I'm like, Oh, that's a bunch of rejection
sensitivity coming up right there.

What's

Mark Butler: that?

What's that?

Paula Engebretson: I

Mark Butler: don't know about that.

Paula Engebretson: So some people talk
about it as rejection sensitive dysphoria,

other people rejection sensitivity, but
it's just, uh, it's, under the executive

function of emotional regulation, but
it's this intense experience that a lot

of ADHDers have of rejection, perceived
rejection, potential rejection, we

reject ourselves instead, it's so strong
that it'll keep us from publishing,

it'll keep us from even reaching out
to somebody to like make a connection.

If you send a text, like there
will be times where I'll send a

text and someone will respond back.

And if I'm not managing my mind,
I'll be like, they didn't have

their normal amount of emojis.

What did I do wrong?

You know?

And it's like, clearly
I said something wrong.

There weren't three hearts after it.

Um, it's just that you can be really
intense and kind of put this filter over.

Yeah.

Whatever it is you're doing.

And I see it come up with a lot
of people who are in the coaching

or content creation space, because
there's such an intense experience of.

Potential rejection perceived rejection
that kind of thing that resonates.

Mark Butler: I I don't uh, I don't

I don't tend to worry that people won't
like me or that But the way you're

describing that experience and the way
I feel on the days where I do these

live q a's That there seems to be some
overlap There my honestly my biggest

concern when I do those is was I nice
because I worry a lot that like I was rude

Paula Engebretson: Mm hmm

Mark Butler: and or that I was dismissive
or that I was Anyway, that may be neither

here nor there, but yes, it is the
easiest way for me to produce content.

If I had an appointment where people just
showed up and asked questions and then

someone took the recording of that and
they just made it exist in the world,

content would be frictionless for me.

It would be essentially zero cost.

Well, if I could manage the emotions
after the fact, it would be zero cost.

Paula Engebretson: I was like,
that would be the thing then,

like if you wanted to do the work
around the mind management after

that could be a streamlined
approach to consistent content

creation, at least in this space.

Thank you.

Mark Butler: What have that's so helpful
as we, as we wind down, I'm curious,

what would you call the fruits of your
consistency in your, in your publishing

over the years that you've been doing it?

Paula Engebretson: So

I think for my, for myself, when I
first started out, It was kind of

fruits just for myself, because with a
podcast, I don't know, it's a slow burn.

Usually you're not creating
a lot of clients right away.

But I learned so much about myself, about
ADHD, about all of these different areas.

Like there was so much growth for myself.

Because again, I think when you teach, you
learn things at a deeper level as well.

And I'm always thinking about
teaching in the podcast.

So that's like a huge component.

Um, but once I actually started building
up more of an audience, it's, it's such

a rewarding experience to be able to
share something and to know that it's

an accessible thing that's out there.

I genuinely think anyone who
has ADHD needs these supports.

So it's just a really fulfilling.

Experience to be able to
put this stuff out there.

Mark Butler: So it's
meaning and yeah, it's

Paula Engebretson: yeah,
there's meaning in it

Mark Butler: That's amazing.

That's amazing.

And I can see again.

I'm your bookkeeper So I I I can
interact with you and know that you're

deriving a lot of good meaning and
and richness from it And also I know

that the business is doing great.

Um, What else would you want to say in
conclusion to to anybody in the audience

who might resonate with adhd tendencies?

Paula Engebretson: I think I would say

If it feels off You If it, you're
just, if you just keep forcing yourself

and you're like, it shouldn't be
this hard, you're probably right.

And there might be a
different way to work with it.

And you might be trying to kind of
force yourself into the shoulds.

Of, well, this is how I was taught
and this is how they teach it in this

funnel thing or whatever you, you know,
like, it's just very possible that your

brain just needs a different type of
scaffolding, a different type of support.

So it can feel easier.

Mark Butler: That's

Paula Engebretson: fantastic.

Mark Butler: Where should
I send people to find you?

Paula Engebretson: Yeah, they can,
uh, head to imbusybeingawesome.

com my, uh, what podcast is
called I'm busy being awesome.

Um, so fantastic.

I love

Mark Butler: that name.

Your program is called we're
busy being awesome, right?

Paula Engebretson: Yeah.

So the group is we're busy being awesome.

Company.

I'm busy being awesome.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Mark Butler: I'm so grateful
that you'd come here and do this.

Uh, I'm excited to send people your way.

And unless

Paula Engebretson: you have

Mark Butler: a problem with it,
this will be live probably in about

an hour, because that's how I am.

Paula Engebretson: I love it.

Fantastic.

Mark Butler: So I'll get you
linked up in the notes and we'll

send you a couple of people.

Paula Engebretson: Awesome.

Thanks so much for having me.

Mark Butler: Thank you, Paula.

Thanks everybody for listening
and yeah, this podcast will

probably be back next week, but.

You know, who could say really?

All right, folks.

Have a good one.

See you, Paula.